If there is anyone who can help people deprogram from the cult of AA, it's Liz.

Liz was a teenager when she dropped into AA meetings. The early 2000s were a mindfuck for millennial teens; Skinspo was completely unregulated and encouraged, ADHD was just a punchline, and that nervous, crawly feeling of an artist was impossible to articulate. If you couldn't tell, that was Liz, making her an easy target for these rooms to manipulate. To them, it wasn't neurodivergence, CPTSD, or starvation—just character defects that only the steps could fix.

Being pushed into the 12-step and then going through the rehab gauntlet is a special flavor of recovery that isn't for the weak of heart. And if you know anything about those rehabs, they're always 12-step-based and for-profit. After completing those rehabs, where can you work? What can you do?

Work at that rehab. Liz did that, and then some, working her way up to executive director of the rehab. She witnessed body-brokering, an illegal and predatory practice where third-party recruiters get paid cash, kickbacks, or other perks to refer vulnerable people—usually those struggling with drug or alcohol addiction—to specific treatment centers or sober living homes. This practice is highly illegal, but it is still occurring.

Liz was a die-hard 12-step member, but she couldn't shake the feelings of sponsorship abuse, the junk science, the problematic steps. After years of questioning and pushing down her very strong feelings, she didn't pick up a chip on her 10-year soberversary and broke free. She hasn't looked back, except to spread awareness and help those asking the same questions.

Also in this episode, Liz told me about these "AA Retreats" that have no doctors, no insurance, and no HIPAA laws. They moonlight as B&Bs, but act as very expensive, for-profit rehabs that are run by AA members and apply the 12 Steps to the entire thing. These patients can't leave of their own accord. She told me to call a facility, and I did, and that's all I'll say for now. Liz will be returning to this podcast to break down that call and discuss more about the illegal practices within treatment centers.

Liz doesn't dice words and, to be real, she blew me away. I've been wrestling with how to show up on this podcast. I want to be objective, but I also want to be intolerant. I've honored free will: if it works for you, so be it. But that allows members to silence victims or deflate their experiences. Liz started off the episode with a precursor; her words verbatim:

“If you’re listening to this podcast, it’s because you’re looking for reasons to stay in AA or to validate what you already believe to be true about AA. If you’re here to defend it, then this isn’t the podcast for you. I’m not going to endorse AA. I’m not going to give the empty response of “well, if it works for you, then go for it.” I don’t represent that narrative, and I’m not speaking on behalf of any voice like that. I’m here to speak on behalf of people who have incurred damage and have seen damage by the 12 Step culture and the treatment industry. I’m speaking for the person who is afraid to leave the meeting.”

That's where I stand, and I won't be soft anymore. Thank you, Liz, for joining and teaching me how to approach this whole thing. Your words are endlessly valuable.