In part two of my conversation with Sall Grover, we discuss the political and legal fallout from the latest Tickle v Giggle decision, and what it means for women’s rights in Australia.

Sall explains why she intends to take the case to the High Court, how the Lesbian Action Group’s case intersects with her own, and why she believes politicians can no longer dismiss this as a “culture war” issue.

We also discuss women only spaces, lesbian events, the Sex Discrimination Act, the Australian Human Rights Commission, the media, and the question at the centre of the whole fight: what is a woman under Australian law?

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Sall Grover returns to discuss the latest ruling in the Tickle v Giggle case after the Full Bench of the Federal Court upheld the original decision and increased damages against her.

We discuss:

• Why the court ruled that excluding a male from a women-only app was unlawful discrimination

• The shift from indirect to direct discrimination

• Whether Australia’s Sex Discrimination Act now treats “woman” as a mixed-sex category

• The implications for women-only spaces, sport, services, and law

• The role of the Australian Human Rights Commission

• The ABC’s framing of the case as a victory for both “trans and women’s rights”

• Why this case has become one of the defining cultural and legal debates in Australia

This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation.

CROWD FUND LINK: https://gigglecrowdfund.com/PREVIOUS INTERVIEWS

Part 1: https://youtu.be/2RN7EDXL_7E?si=Ds4vzrM9AiaiMnUG

Part 2: https://youtu.be/2RN7EDXL_7E?si=tWpjBQyJGzl9m77c

ABC article discussed: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/giggle-for-girls-v-tickle-judgement-good-trans-womens-rights/106694548

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Nicole Mowbray of the Lesbian Action Group joins Monica Lewis to break down one of the most significant legal cases in Australia on sex-based rights.

The case centres on whether a lesbian group can legally exclude biological males from events under the Sex Discrimination Act. After being denied an exemption by the Australian Human Rights Commission and losing at the Administrative Review Tribunal, the group successfully challenged the ruling in the Federal Court in April 2026.

The decision has now been sent back to the tribunal, setting up a pivotal next phase in the legal battle.

Key Topics

• History of the Sex Discrimination Act (1985 → 2013 amendments)
• Why lesbian groups say they were “pushed underground” since the early 2000s
• The 2023 exemption request and rejection
• Administrative Review Tribunal ruling and reasoning
• Federal Court decision and why it was overturned
• The role of the Australian Human Rights Commission
• Tension between sex-based rights and gender identity
• Broader implications for women’s spaces, sport, and institutions

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Lesbian Action Group: lesbianactiongroup.org.auX: @activelesbians

Related Episodes

Sal Grover interview (Tickle v Giggle case): https://open.spotify.com/episode/4CIufJdvUCw685gdPtJeYE?si=78425f297cfb46e8

Is America drifting into another war it can’t win?

I’m in Washington DC speaking with Jacob Heilbrunn about the Iran conflict, the limits of American power, and what this moment means for global order.

We get into why the idea of an “imminent” Iranian nuclear threat has persisted for decades without materialising, what he calls “permanent imminence,” and why Iran may have more leverage than Washington expected. Jacob argues this war was supposed to last days, but is now stretching into months, exposing the reality that the United States cannot simply dictate outcomes in the Middle East.

We also discuss the domestic political consequences. This is an unpopular war, inflation is rising fast, and fuel prices are becoming a direct political liability for Trump. With the 2026 midterms approaching, what looked like a loss of the House is now expanding into a real risk to the Senate. At the same time, the MAGA coalition is beginning to fracture, particularly between those who supported Trump to end foreign wars and those backing this escalation.

The conversation then turns to alliances and strategy. What does this mean for NATO? For Australia? And what happens when America signals that it may not always show up for its allies, while still expecting them to fall in line?

Finally, we look at the economic consequences. Oil is feeding directly into inflation, pushing up costs across the economy and raising the risk of a broader global shock if the conflict continues.

This is a conversation about war, power, and what happens when strategy collides with reality.

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Is America entering into a war nobody voted for?

I'm in Washington DC speaking with Emily Jashinsky, host of After Party on the Megyn Kelly Network, about the Iranconflict, the fracturing of Trump's coalition, and what the 2026 midterms actually look like from inside the Beltway.

We get into the recent negotiations between America and Iran, why gas prices are now Trump's biggest political liability, the Epstein communications disaster, and whether the populist moment that delivered him the presidency is at risk of being squandered. I also ask the question Australian audiences rarely hear answered honestly: why would a rational person vote for Donald Trump? Hint, there are many reasons…

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Daniel Di Martino was born in Venezuela in 1999, the same month Hugo Chavez came to power. In this episode, he traces exactly how a country with the world's largest oil boom destroyed itself, and why the policy sequence that caused it is playing out in Australia today.

Venezuela is the only country ever destroyed by socialism that voted it in democratically. The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea — none of them chose it at the ballot box. Venezuelans did. And then they couldn't vote their way out. Daniel explains why that distinction matters, and how the process works: it starts not with seizure but with taxation, then regulation, then price controls, then government intervention to fix the shortages those price controls created. His own family's petrol station earned $4,000 a month in the early 2000s. By 2016, after nationalisation, it returned $100.

The episode examines the Australian parallels in detail. Australia is the world's largest exporter of natural gas and exports seven times more coal than it consumes domestically, yet collects more tax revenue from beer than from gas. The political pressure to increase resource taxes follows the same script Daniel watched play out in Venezuela. On housing, Australia's combination of high immigration and restricted supply has produced a system where the primary predictor of homeownership is whether your parents own a home, not a person's own effort or ability. Rent control, he argues, has never worked in any country in any era - the Roman Empire tried price controls on bread and got shortages - and the evidence from Austin, Texas, which went the other direction, shows average rents now below pre-COVID levels in real terms.

The conversation also covers the cost of homelessness spending that makes homelessness worse, why the net zero transition requires clearing land 1.5 times the size of Tasmania, and what democratic socialism looks like in Western cities before it announces itself - including DSA members who actively support the Maduro regime today.Daniel Di Martino: https://www.danieldimartino.com/X: https://x.com/DanielDiMartinoManhattan Institute: https://manhattan.instituteFollow Quite Frankly with Monica Lewis:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quitefranklymediaX: https://x.com/quitefranklyauFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/quitefranklymedia

What is a woman under Australian law?

In Part 2, Sall Grover breaks down the legal mechanics of Tickle v Giggle, the Federal Court case that could define biological sex in Australia.

The first Federal Court judge ruled that sex, in its "contemporary ordinary meaning," is changeable, based on the fact that legal sex can be altered on birth certificates. If that reasoning holds, there is no definition of "woman" in Australian law that excludes a biological male.

Sall explains how Australia diverged from other jurisdictions. The UK resolved this legally through the For Women Scotland case. The US resolved it politically. Australia now faces a hybrid, with multiple cases moving through the courts alongside a shifting political landscape.

The episode also examines the role of Equality Australia, which intervened in the case arguing that sex is a spectrum. Governor General Sam Mostyn, a patron of the organisation, was cited in their affidavit when seeking to intervene in the appeal.

Sall also outlines the cost of the case: around $560,000 for the initial Federal Court hearing and roughly $1 million for the appeal, with further funding required if it proceeds to the High Court.

Finally, the conversation looks at the broader legal and social consequences of redefining sex, from language in medicine to the treatment of sex in law and public policy.

00:00 Introduction and case recap
07:33 Why Sall is not an activist
10:07 Gender ideology and core freedoms
12:00 Media coverage of the case
16:41 Australia vs UK and US
18:20 For Women Scotland and the appeal
20:35 Political shifts
25:23 Compelled speech
26:46 Language in medicine
30:12 Path to the High Court
42:31 Cost of the case
47:29 Why Sall continues
49:12 Final word

Support Sall Grover's legal fight:
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Article referenced:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

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What is a woman under Australian law?

In 2020, Sall Grover launched Giggle, a women-only app designed to give women a space to find flatmates, build networks, and connect without men. Access was verified using selfie-based AI at sign-up.

When Roxanne Tickle was denied access, a complaint was filed under the Sex Discrimination Act. What began as a startup dispute became the case of Giggle v Tickle, now before the Federal Court, testing whether Australian law still recognises biological sex.

In Part 1, Sall Grover explains how she went from screenwriting in Hollywood to building a tech startup, what happened when thousands of men flooded the app on launch, what the Australian Human Rights Commission demanded she agree to, and why she refused.

This is one of the most significant legal tests of sex, gender identity, and women’s rights currently before an Australian court.

A judgment from the Full Federal Court is now pending.

00:00 — Introduction

04:39 — What is a woman?

05:49 — From Hollywood to building Giggle

09:26 — Launch day: the app is overwhelmed by men

11:02 — Discovering gender ideology for the first time

12:17 — How the AI verification actually worked

14:10 — Why this is harder to defend than flat earth theory

15:51 — The complaint: Tickle v Giggle explained

17:35 — What the Human Rights Commission asked Sall to accept

22:30 — The 2013 amendments that removed 'woman' from the Act

26:06 — What 'gender identity' actually means in Australian law

31:00 — The first hearing and the judge's reasoning

37:00 — The appeal to the full federal court

41:59 — The Sex Discrimination Commissioner's role

47:10 — An accidental culture warrior

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