On the podcast today, David and Nathan are back with the second episode in their new series, where they break down the key components that make up a website. Today, they’re talking about website navigation, and asking the surprisingly sticky question: why is it so bloody awful?

David has done a deep dive into the ins and outs of navigation, putting together an exhaustive list of all the pieces involved. Nathan admits he used to take a much simpler approach, just add the top-level links and hope Google did the rest, but David’s research proves there’s a lot more going on beneath the surface.

They start by exploring the shifting meaning of terms like “menu,” “navigation,” and “nav,” both from a developer and a user’s perspective. Is it a noun? Is it a verb? Is it a technical role? As they discovered, even big names in UX like the Nielsen Norman Group can’t seem to agree.

From there, they walk through the many different types of website navigation: main links, hamburger menus, even on desktop, breadcrumbs, dropdowns (on hover or click), mega menus, and more. And it’s not just the styles that are confusing, there’s a tangle of terminology too, with “dropdowns,” “flyouts,” and “pull downs” meaning different things to different people.

David and Nathan share their frustrations with modern navigation: hidden menu items, ambiguous links, and the accessibility pitfalls of complicated dropdowns. They talk about why menus can be especially tricky on mobile, and how easy it is for even pros to get lost in their own site’s nav. David explains his approach of keeping things simple, stopping at HTML and CSS wherever possible, and only grudgingly adding JavaScript when absolutely needed.

They then explore the design, SEO, and accessibility issues that come with modern navigation patterns: from accidentally hiding important links from both users and Google, to building mega menus that are impossible to navigate by keyboard, to the sheer overwhelm of too many choices.

The conversation is packed with real-world frustrations, rants about hover-based menus, and practical tips on creating accessible, user-friendly website navigation. If you’ve ever been baffled by your own website’s menu, or just want to build smarter, simpler navigation that works for everyone, this episode is for you.

On the podcast today we have the usual suspects - Nathan Wrigley and David Waumsley.

This is the first in a new series where Nathan and David take a deep dive into different website components - today’s focus is on accordions. You know the ones: those hide-and-show sections you often see on FAQ pages, product details, or anywhere there’s a need to tidy up lots of information into collapsible panels. But what makes an accordion actually a good solution for your site, and when does it start to get in the way?

Nathan and David kick things off by defining what an accordion is (with a nod to the UX authorities and the W3C) - and clarifying, with a bit of humour, what does and does not count as an accordion out in the wild. They look at the types of accordions - exclusive, non-exclusive, and toggle - and discuss how these patterns got established in web design.

They also reflect on their own use (and sometimes overuse) of accordions in client work, especially handy within page builders, and how their thinking has changed as the web’s evolved.

Then it’s onto the technical side: the code needed. David explains why, until recently, JavaScript was essential for accessible accordions, but now, thanks to advances in HTML (details and summary elements), CSS (with exciting new features like interpolate size), and improved browser support, you can build robust accordions without a single line of JavaScript - plus some important gotchas and accessibility considerations to watch for.

They round things off by discussing when accordions add value - helping reduce overwhelm and improve scanability (is that a word?!) - and when they can cause problems, like increasing "interaction cost," fragmenting information, or raising accessibility and SEO concerns. There are design details to consider, as well as practical recommendations for ensuring your accordions are friendly for both users and search engines.

And if you want to see these concepts put into practice, the episode is paired with a follow-up video where David and Nathan demonstrate real code snippets and examples at noscript.show/learn/12.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re using accordions for the right reasons, how to build them the modern way, or want a clearer picture of their pros and cons - you won’t want to miss this episode.

Timestamps:

00:00 Accordion Design and Definition

06:22 FAQ Page Building Approach

07:52 HTML-Only Accordions Evolve

12:04 "Content Organization: Pros and Cons"

13:47 Logitech Product Page Analysis

16:56 "Accordion Utility in CMS Design"

22:02 Browser Styling Challenges and Limitations

24:49 Schema Markup for FAQs

27:43 "Purpose of Hiding FAQ Content"

29:56 "New Development Wrap-Up"

On the podcast today David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley discuss some of the things that they've done well, and not so well over their 20 years as web site builders.

David kicks off by reflecting on some common missteps: not fully understanding the nature of the web, getting distracted by new tools and dependencies, and forgetting the basic tenets of good markup and accessibility.

He and Nathan talk about the importance of simple, semantic HTML first, focusing on communication before aesthetics, and the recurring struggle with over-complicating even the most basic sites.

From there, they examine why recurring revenue is essential for freelancers, how face-to-face and honest communication with clients can be a superpower, and why being agile, building projects around the client rather than forcing the client into a predefined 'system', can be transformational.

The episode is full of candid admissions and practical insights: David talks about his ongoing battle to minimise dependencies and keep his projects hand-off ready, the value of welcoming all kinds of clients/projects (even friends and family), and why he’s moved away from selling websites as self-contained 'products' towards offering them as ongoing, collaborative communication tools.

Finally, Nathan and David lay out their plan for the future of the show: a practical series focused on building up a library of reusable website 'components', demonstrating not just how to write cleaner code, but how to think about user experience, accessibility, and long-term maintainability.

If you want to become a better freelance web designer, or just want to hear what two experienced freelancers wish they’d done differently, this episode is for you.

Timestamps:

00:00 Revisiting Web Design Fundamentals

03:50 "Web Evolution and Future Trends"

09:37 From HTML Learner to WordPress Builder

10:23 Tech Complexity: Unnecessary Dependencies

16:22 Balancing Solo Work and Agility

19:24 Website Maintenance Challenges

23:13 Early Web Development Business Growth

26:10 Human Connection as Future Asset

30:22 Misconceptions in Page Builder Circles

33:23 "The Value of Being a Generalist"

35:57 Prioritizing Content and Efficiency

37:34 Streamlined Approach to Optimization