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In this episode of ProductCamp Conversations, Allison Herbert and Dave Mathias sit down with Steve Johnson — the first instructor hired at Pragmatic Marketing and now CEO of Product Growth Leaders — to explore why AI should be a “yes, and,” not an “instead of,” for product managers. Drawing on decades of training an estimated 40,000 product people, Steve makes the case that judgment and firsthand customer experience are what will keep product managers employed, and why so much of product work drifted from solving problems to writing feature specs.

📌 Topics Covered:

• Steve’s path from programmer to sales engineer to top seller to product manager — and joining Pragmatic Marketing as its first instructor in the 90s

• Why teams need a playbook

• Training isn’t transformation

• AI is a “yes, and,” not an “instead of”

• How product management shifted from a business role to a delivery role

• Who to hire into product, domain knowledge over technology, and why PMs who code still need to ask “where were you supposed to be?”

• Why ProductCamp works: most product managers don’t work with other product managers — plus throwing your first version away and “nothing important happens in the office”, revised to “little is learned in your office”

📚 Referenced:

• “Strong Opinions, Loosely Held” — Marty Cagan, SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/strong-opinions-loosely-held/

• The Challenger Sale — Matthew Dixon and Brent Adamson: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/309666/the-challenger-sale-by-matthew-dixon/

• Manifesto for Agile Software Development: https://agilemanifesto.org/

• The Scrum Guide: https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html

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🔗 CONNECT WITH GUEST STEVE JOHNSON:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjohnson717/

• Website: https://pgl.fyi (Product Growth Leaders)

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🎙️ CONNECT WITH THE HOSTS:

• Allison Herbert:

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aherbert42

- Website: https://allisonherbert.com

• Dave Mathias:

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davemathias1

- Website: https://gobeyondthedata.com

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📧 GET IN TOUCH:

Have thoughts on this episode or want to suggest a topic/guest?

Drop a comment below or reach out at productcampconversations@gmail.com!

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