Today’s guest is Geoff Mann. Geoff is a Canadian political economist who was recently in town and I loved having the opportunity to not only sit down and record this conversation, but to indulge in the breadth and depth of his unique background. His research, teaching and books have intersected around political economy, political theory and the history of ideas, with much of his writings in recent years delving into climate change, macroeconomic crisis, the far right and fascist politics, as well as how uncertainty underpins much of this. How do we make sense of what we don’t understand, or what has never happened before? What gives actual confidence to understand what could occur, what lessons do the past offer, how to identify false and fake confidence, what role does power play, how is our political system set up to deal with any form of complexity and uncertainty? These and much more were questions Geoff’s work has explored.

What struck me though before and then meeting Geoff was how adamant he was in the necessity for humility in this moment. A climate crisis, wars, shifting geopolitical currents - yet many still stand up and let us know that they’ve seen the future, that they know - with a bizarre level of certainty - what all of this means. Chatting with Geoff I realised that the natural state of impermanence of living each day - which I do my best to ignore and hope to impose my own grand plans of control over regardless of how delusional that is - that impermanence is perhaps one of the most important concepts for our society to come to grips with today. How can we predict the impacts of climate change in economic models that weren’t built for that with any sense of certainty and think they give us the answer for what’s to come - when we have never in human history experienced anything like this climate ever, and when it will only become more volatile, unstable and unknown? Yet we try. And aren’t the consultants and lawyers enjoying that cash cow at the moment helping client after client deliver integrated climate assessment models that don’t in any way reflect the reality of disaster and creeping ecological changes underway in every corner of the planet.

We cover so much in this conversation. The malady of mainstream economic theory and modelling to deal with a whole new reality, the role of story in beginning to imagine and anticipate potential futures, how to think about trade-offs, the potential for a climate leviathan or climate Mao, and the necessity for modesty, generosity and curiosity to be infused in any form of inquiry or action.

Some extra reading relevant to this episode from our friends at Altiorem.

The Climate Average Trap

Prosperity without growth: The transition to a sustainable economy

Rewiring finance – a new approach to financing a sustainable economy

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