Michael Hirtzel is a Civil War historian, documentary filmmaker (Calcutta is My Mother), author of The Papa Bull, and a PGA apprentice who teaches golf in Florida. He was raised in the Assemblies of God, moved through the evangelical world, landed in Calvinism, and is now seriously considering becoming Catholic. He and Josh have known each other for years, and this is the conversation they kept having offline.

It starts with a confession: the older Michael gets, the less he expects good things to happen. From there they dig into where the shame in their shared upbringing came from, why Romans 7 has to be read into Romans 8, why churches are afraid to preach grace, and the part nobody warns you about: when grace finally took the guilt away, Michael's drive went with it and he felt dead inside. Josh presses on purpose instead of performance, on who Jesus actually spent his time with, and on why the people most capable of empathy carry shame the heaviest.

The second half is about sacredness: a baptism party with no mention of God, home groups that never talk about Jesus, worship leaders pulling levers, and what draws Michael to a Latin Mass and to prayers written eight hundred years ago. They end on fasting, and a promise to record the next one four days into a fast.

About Michael Hirtzel: Michael holds his Masters in History with a focus on the Civil War and still teaches periodically as a professor of History. He also directed and produced the acclaimed documentary Calcutta is My Mother and wrote the self-help book The Papa Bull. Golf has also been a lifelong passion for Michael and he is a PGA Apprentice. He currently works as the Director of Instruction at GOLFTEC in Carrollwood, FL.

• (00:00:00) - Intro
• (00:00:33) - The older I get, the less I expect good things
• (00:03:46) - Dopamine, distraction and fake community
• (00:06:31) - So what is the meaning?
• (00:09:18) - Where the shame comes from: Calvinism and Arminianism
• (00:11:43) - The Assemblies of God's fundamental truths
• (00:13:21) - Romans 7 into Romans 8
• (00:18:25) - Shame is used to control
• (00:22:07) - If God is omnipresent, nothing can separate us
• (00:23:11) - Universalism, the elect and predestination
• (00:26:53) - Reading the gospel through grace, and feeling dead
• (00:33:47) - Purpose instead of performance
• (00:37:57) - Who did Jesus hang out with?
• (00:41:21) - Is personality really who we are?
• (00:42:45) - Why shame hits the empathetic hardest
• (00:47:15) - I believe; help my unbelief
• (00:49:19) - Where does the separation come from?
• (00:53:14) - A baptism party with no mention of God
• (00:55:47) - Religion woven into culture
• (00:58:08) - Home groups: shooting the breeze or real fellowship
• (01:04:42) - Why Michael is drawn to Catholicism
• (01:08:37) - The Litany of Humility, prayers across centuries
• (01:12:56) - Sola scriptura and communing with the saints
• (01:19:56) - The danger of going through the motions
• (01:20:48) - Worship leaders and emotional manipulation
• (01:25:27) - Set and setting: sacredness in plant medicine and mass
• (01:29:50) - Why I dread going to church
• (01:33:46) - Lent, Hallow and fasting
• (01:38:03) - A fasting episode, and closing