“You can see how important storytelling is to fascism and to MAGA and to ICE. And that type of narrative is seductive to a whole lot of people, not just white people but to a lot of other people as well, and it's yoked to many other narratives around what is the United States, what is American power, what is going to benefit American power, what's going to erode American power. So there's a tremendous amount of phobia around who constitutes the other or the others to the United States, and it goes way, way back, obviously, to the origins of the country.” –Viet Thanh Nguyen

“This really is such a thread throughout the book. Solo el pueblo salva al pueblo, only we the people can save the people, has become a theme. Because what happened in 2025 through now is people were realizing, Who's coming to save us? The state is attacking us. When the state is attacking us, who do we turn to? We can only turn to one another. This was really remarkable, and I think it was such an important aspect to showcase because what it did was it gave people confidence. –Sonali Kolhatkar

In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Sonali Kolhatkar and Viet Thanh Nguyen about a new book edited by Sonali entitled Breaking ICE: Community Defense Against State Terror and MAGA Fascism. The book is comprised of interviews Sonali conducted with activists, organizers, intellectuals and artists from a rich diversity of locations—from Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, and other major cities, to small towns in Georgia, Maine, the Carolinas, and elsewhere. We talk about the broad ideological formations that support State Terror and Fascism, as well as the ways people have wielded soft power with tactics and strategies such as mutual aid, Know Your Rights, power mapping, networking, and rapid response. Viet specifically talks about the power of counter-narratives that tap into radical imaginings and utopian thinking. We speak of the ways people from all walks of life have risen to the task of keeping each other safe.

(0:00) ICE, MAGA, Fascism, and American Power

(3:34) The Origins of the Anti-ICE Movement

(11:47) Soft Power and the National Day Laborer Organizing Network

(15:15) The Role of Social Media in Humanizing Immigrants

(19:43) Demographic Shifts and the Rise of Authoritarian Panic

(26:15) Individualism vs. Collectivist Culture

(32:19) Reevaluating Democratic Party Platforms and Abolition

(38:57) Challenging the United States in the Inter-American Courts

(42:40) Divesting from Militarism and Investing in Safety

(46:11) The Cyclical Nature of History and Enduring Resistance

Episode Website

www.palumbo-liu.com
https://speakingoutofplace.com
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