Michael Crigler is an artist behind much of the artwork for DIY Bandits, Back On The Grind Records, Stay Free Coffee and other projects I worked on. He's also a longtime, dear friend and mentor.

We start with how a conversation about album art turned into a friendship, including a phone call back when I was angry at the world and he offered another way to look at it. From there we get into what it means to choose compassion over rage, how that shaped my time in prison, and how he approaches creative work: trust, mistakes, nature, and the balance of order and chaos. We also get into the artwork for the Pat The Bunny and Ceschi friendship LP and the Looms / Trash Boat And The Ambush 7", wild places, slowing down, and the rules we use when things fall apart. The song at the end is 'One Of Us - Freaks,1932' by Trash Boat And The Ambush

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