"It's easy to say 343, 344. But it's really one loss, three hundred and forty-four times."

Frank Leeb spent nearly thirty-two years in the FDNY and retired as a Deputy Assistant Chief in June 2024. He is now Managing Director of the First Responder Center for Excellence. He is also the only person we asked to come back.

This conversation was recorded just after the twenty-fifth anniversary of September 11th, and Frank told us something we did not expect: he had not talked about his day anywhere else. Not in an interview, not on another show. He walks us through all of it, hour by hour. The six a.m. train into the city with his son-in-law and a member of his volunteer department. The moments of silence outside quarters at 76 Engine, where he was captain. The firemen's memorial five blocks away, where firefighters from Florida, Texas, Italy, London, Vermont and Oregon had come to stand. Headquarters in Brooklyn at two in the afternoon, because when you make staff chief, headquarters becomes your last firehouse. The bagpipes at sunset outside Ten House, and the band leader calling into the crowd for people to shout the names of who they were honoring. And then, near eleven at night and running on nothing, a subway ride to Queens to stand in a kitchen for a friend's last tour, because that is what you do.

He got home at one thirty in the morning. He left at six.

Frank also does the arithmetic the fire service has been doing quietly for twenty-five years: 343 lost that day, 344 counting the fire patrol member, 453 since from occupational illness, and 152 more added to the memorial wall who were already retired on September 11th and came back to help anyway. Approaching a thousand people. The FDNY ceremony could not be held at St. Patrick's Cathedral this year because the cathedral is not big enough.

Amy, who was living in New York that morning, asks him the question underneath the whole day: does it fill your cup, or does it empty it? His answer is the reason this episode exists.

He also talks about his friend Tony Mastrelli, who died at fifty-eight of occupational illness in November 2024, and whose memorial shirt Frank is wearing while we talk.

This episode is dedicated to Firefighter Anthony "Tony" Mastrelli, FDNY Ladder 56 and East Farmingdale Fire Department. 1991 to 2024.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Frank Leeb's books, including In the Mouth of the Dragon: Toxic Fires in the Age of Plastics, second edition, co-authored with Deborah Wallace. https://fireengineeringbooks.com/search.php?search_query=leeb

"The Story of the List" by retired FDNY Captain Frank Leto, on how scribbled names on yellow legal pads became the department's official missing and deceased list. Frank calls it the one must-read piece on September 11th this year. https://www.firerescue1.com/fdny/the-story-of-the-list

First Responder Center for Excellence, free online training: https://firstrespondercenter.org

Unseen Exposures is presented by SPOKE: https://www.spokemovie.com

Music: White Mountains by Zambolino Source: https://freetouse.com/music Royalty Free Music (Free Download)