The conversation explores the difference between influence and manipulation, why dark leaders are often drawn to power, how "kiss up, kick down" behaviour can hide for years, and why organizational culture plays such a critical role. Ted also discusses what he calls dark-activated behaviour: people who may begin acting destructively when the culture rewards or tolerates it.

In Episode #118 of The Executive Commute, Jayson Krause is joined by industrial-organizational psychologist Dr. Ted Vokes for a deep examination of evil, the dark tetrad, and what dark leadership can look like inside organizations.

Ted breaks down four dark personality traits: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism. He explains how these traits can show up in leaders who appear charming, capable, and impressive to those above them while exploiting, manipulating, intimidating, or destabilizing the people below them.

Jayson and Ted then move from recognition to response. They discuss how to protect yourself, set non-negotiable boundaries, contain damaging behaviour through clear expectations and behaviour management, and why organizations should act decisively when they have grounds to remove a toxic leader.

The episode closes with a more hopeful question: what protects leadership from becoming dark? Ted points to social and emotional intelligence, ego maturity, and the ability to be secure in your own power while making room for the power of others.

Episode timestamps:

00:00 Evil and dark traits in leadership

00:11 Ted's personal connection to dark leadership

03:47 Rethinking "hurt people hurt people"

08:24 Ted's background in industrial-organizational psychology

12:24 Understanding the dark tetrad

13:45 Narcissism

14:56 The dark, Goldilocks, and dazzling zones

19:15 Psychopathy

22:43 Psychopathy in executive roles

27:10 Why dark leadership can look delightful

28:15 Machiavellianism

29:43 Manipulation versus influence

31:47 Narcissistic theatre and self-serving causes

34:47 Machiavellianism in practice

37:54 Sadism

40:00 What workplace sadism can look like

44:23 How common dark traits may be

47:56 Culture as the antidote

49:00 Dark-activated behaviour

51:52 How culture can activate destructive behaviour

57:20 "What if I'm one of them?"

59:42 Working alongside a dark leader

1:03:00 Containment and behaviour management

1:06:39 Why not simply let them go?

1:08:04 The three outcomes of containment

1:11:00 Can people with dark traits change?

1:12:41 The worst advice for dealing with dark traits

1:16:52 Where the hope comes from

1:19:01 Boundaries are not negotiations

1:22:30 Where to learn more about Ted

1:23:37 The invisible force behind leadership success

1:27:27 Closing reflections

Prefer to watch? Find the full video episode of The Executive Commute on the Level 52 Inc. YouTube channel.

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