In this episode of Conversations, I talk about one of the most misunderstood topics in church leadership: church growth. While growth is often celebrated as success, unexamined growth can actually be unhealthy and even harmful if it outpaces discipleship, repentance, and spiritual formation. We look at how attendance, momentum, and numbers have slowly replaced biblical measures of faithfulness and fruitfulness. I walk through Jesus’ perspective on crowds, the difference between growth and health, and why transfer growth can give leaders a false sense of effectiveness. This conversation challenges church leaders to rethink how they measure success and to prioritize maturity, Christ-likeness, and long-term spiritual health over simply attracting larger crowds. If you’re a pastor or church leader wrestling with metrics, pressure to grow, or questions about what healthy ministry really looks like, this episode is an invitation to slow down and return to biblical foundations.

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