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This long-form interview explores the nature of devotional poetry in the 17th century, focusing on major figures such as John Donne, George Herbert, and their contemporaries. Together with Professor Helen Wilcox (Bangor University), we examine how early modern poets grappled with one of the central paradoxes of religious writing: the sense that language is both essential and ultimately insufficient to express God.

A recurring theme in this discussion is the idea that God exceeds language. Even the most inventive and intellectually rigorous poets—Donne with his metaphysical conceits, Herbert with his formal precision—acknowledge a limit to expression. Poetry becomes an act of striving: an attempt to articulate the divine while recognizing that it can never be fully contained in words.

We also explore:

The relationship between devotional poetry and prayer

The overlap between love poetry and religious expression

The influence of the Psalms and biblical translation

The role of music, liturgy, and communal worship

The tension between private faith and public poetry

The cultural and historical context of post-Reformation England

From the metaphysical intensity of Donne to Herbert’s quieter devotional struggles, this conversation offers an in-depth look at how poets used language to approach what lies beyond it—and why they so often felt they failed.

Whether you're interested in literature, theology, philosophy, or early modern history, this discussion provides a rich introduction to one of the most intellectually and spiritually complex traditions in English poetry.

00:00:00 Introduction

00:14:15 Is devotional poetry a form of prayer?

00:30:50 Should we only write to improve people's lives?

00:41:30 You can only remake a religion in a group - not alone

00:47:00 What we most relish in Donne

00:53:15 Can we find poets in their poems?

01:00:40 Devotion in the modern world

01:14:40 Devotional poetry and music

01:26:49 A blind man describing the abyss

01:38:14 The 18th century is a desert

01:46:00 Magnolia trees in full bloom