What is the connection between creativity and sustainability? That's the topic of the conversation between Joel and Soli this episode.

To be clear, this isn’t just about those who can play an instrument, tell a story or paint a picture. Indeed, we challenged the popular notions of people as “creatives”or “influentials,” since these labels segment people unnecessarily. Instead, we emphasize that creativity is universal: from crafting bedtime stories to everyday problem-solving in supply chains or sustainability roles. Even repetitive jobs can involve improvisation, lateral thinking, negotiation and imaginative work behind the scenes.

Also important, we discussed, is the role of humor and levity. For example, wordplay and punning can be a useful way of processing ideas and connecting — creative elements that make sustainability work more enjoyable and less depressing at times.

Godelnik’s critique of current corporate efforts calls for moving beyond incrementalism and into systems-level transformation that prioritizes values over profits. “We’re living in an era where, for the most part, what we’re doing is tweaking the system rather than transforming the system,” he told us. “I call it sustainability as usual... grounded in the prioritization of profit maximization and growth, mostly short-term growth.”

Godelnik described how external conditions — regulation, social pressure, policy — can accelerate or impede corporate sustainability, often more than internal ambition. This sharp distinction reflects a concern that compliance is crowding out creativity. True progress will require investment in bold, entrepreneurial approaches, he said.

How does a corporate sustainability professional meet the moment?

That’s one of the questions we posed to Unilever’s chief sustainability and corporate affairs officer Rebecca Marmot in a live-on-stage podcast recording session during this year’s London Climate Action Week.

Marmot, who joined Unilever 18 years ago after stints at L’Oreal and in the U.K. government, discussed the some of the keys to success for today’s CSO.

Also in this episode, Soli and I discuss how to think about artificial intelligence through the lens of sustainability.