When I first sat across from Jen Hatmaker for this conversation, I knew we were going to talk about courage and integrity. What I didn’t expect was how deeply her story would echo some of my own — and probably some of yours, too.

I’ve watched Jen navigate public success, private heartbreak, theological transformation, and the painful cost of choosing integrity over approval. Through every rise and collapse, she has somehow stayed tender, honest, grounded, and fiercely aligned with who she’s becoming.

In this conversation, we explore what happens when the life you built starts to crack. When the roles you’re praised for no longer fit. When the values you were handed reveal themselves to be too small for the person you’re growing into.

Jen and I talk about:

• the moment her 26-year marriage shattered
• how she examined the “faulty bricks” her life was built on
• which values are worth keeping — and which ones have to go
• the cost of living out of alignment
• the cost of choosing integrity instead
• what it really takes to rebuild a life that finally fits
• how pain can make you softer instead of harder

There’s humor here too — AC/DC trauma, country music fangirling, and a Grand Ole Opry moment that will make your throat tight. But at its core, this is a conversation about truth, courage, and the lives we claim when we stop pretending.

The reminder I needed most: There is always a cost to staying in a life that no longer aligns with who you are becoming. And the longer you stay, the higher the cost becomes.

In the end, that’s the work of a badass softie — letting courage and compassion walk you toward the life that’s meant for you.