Forty bakeries were invited. Two hundred judges. A blind taste test, an open bar, and a few Michelin-starred kitchens in the field. Culture Espresso won first place, and Johnny has been hanging his hat on it ever since. "It was also a great opportunity to tease our friends in a Michelin-starred kitchen that one day they'll catch up."

The recipe hasn't changed in seventeen years.

Tiffany Pham sits down with him over the cookie that keeps winning. He is clear that there is no trick to it: "no shtick other than really high quality." French ingredients, small batches all day so nothing sits, and a flat refusal to get more efficient. People have told him for years he's foolish to use an ingredient that expensive, or that a machine could replace half the staff. "We haven't made a single stride towards efficiency."

The route there was not a bakery. He was a bookseller, then a teenage drummer who toured with punk bands and worked in cafés between tours. He got obsessed with coffee in the years before you could learn it on Instagram, when you had to find a secret coffee wizard and train with him. He was young and could not get a lease in Midtown on his own. His business partner Jody LoCascio had met the landlord of this building in a bar and been offered a good deal on it, and Johnny talked his way in with a pitch to run the coffee program.

The idea he keeps returning to is one he borrowed from the Eameses: the best, for the most, for the least. He knows a six-dollar cookie isn't the least. "But I'd like to think that both Eames and ourselves made it as fair as we could while trying to make it as best as we could."

Savor with Tiffany Pham, a Representation production, is a companion to the television docuseries premiering May 2027. Cinematography by: Kym Pham.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Meeting Johnny: "the best chocolate chip cookies in New York"
00:40 "Cookies are like pizza and bagels"
00:53 Forty bakeries, two hundred judges, one blind taste test
01:36 Teasing the Michelin-starred kitchen
02:15 "No shtick other than really high quality"
02:38 The crunch on the outside
03:40 "We haven't altered this recipe in 17 years"
04:07 A group effort, and Jody's sourdough
05:01 "The longer I was a barista, the better a barista I wanted to be"
05:21 "We were going to be way too serious. Only coffee."
06:02 Seeking out the best ingredients
06:43 "We haven't made a single stride towards efficiency"
07:08 Small batches, and waiting five minutes
07:57 Punk bands, touring, and working in a cafe between tours
08:40 Before Instagram: finding a secret coffee wizard
09:21 Signing a lease in Midtown at 24
10:00 "Coffee felt like the working man's wine"
11:04 Meeting Jody through a drummer
12:05 The Eames idea: the best, for the most, for the least
12:53 "If it ain't broke": on burrata, and not chasing a trend
14:11 Three stores in 17 years, all within three blocks
15:15 Fourteen-hour days, and delivering cookies by bicycle through COVID
15:59 "Now I have a one year old that is the light of my life"
16:55 The chemical engineer he met over nachos
18:25 Mornings with his son, and the scone he's chasing
19:43 Rapid fire: pho at Two Wheels
20:52 Burger: Red Hook Tavern, and J.G. Melon
21:32 Noodles: Xi'an, and the COVID noodle kits
22:30 Cinnamon roll: Sunday Morning. Pizza: Christy's in Greenpoint
23:44 The bookseller, and the cookbook he's still writing
24:47 After the interview: everyone wants the free consultation
25:16 Yale, Harvard, and a ninth-grade dropout in a Harvard shirt
25:51 The case study they still teach
27:00 "I used to be embarrassed I dropped out. Now I don't care"
28:46 "My life right now is so much better than I ever imagined"
30:17 The Rolex, his father, and what it means to pass something down
32:03 The Plaza, and an immigrant child's bucket list
32:48 "It's so much easier than people say it is"
34:09 "It was great talking to you", and goodbye

ABOUT CULTURE ESPRESSO
Culture Espresso — cultureespresso.com

🎬 The Savor with Tiffany Pham docuseries premieres May 1, 2027
🌐 savortheuniverse.com

Click here to view the episode transcript.