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This episode is something special. Imagine reconnecting with two young men from your youth group… fifty years later. That’s exactly what happened when Brad Thompson and Rick Axtell and I found our way back into each other’s lives after five decades apart, tracing a shared journey that none of us could have predicted.

Back in the early 1970s in Deerfield, Illinois, we were shaped by the same evangelical world at a thriving church on the north side of Chicago. Life, of course, took us in very different directions. Brad Thompson went on to pastoral ministry after graduating from St. Olaf College and earning his M.Div. from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School—the same seminary I attended. Along the way, he also invested deeply in the lives of underserved young adults through YouthBuild, helping provide education, job training, and hope for a better future. Even in retirement, Brad continues to serve as an interim pastor in the Evangelical Covenant Church—and he was the catalyst behind our remarkable reunion.

Rick Axtell’s journey led him into academia and service. He became a distinguished professor of religion and college chaplain at Centre College in Kentucky, earning multiple teaching awards and national recognition, including being named one of The Princeton Review’s top professors. Rick has also devoted himself to addressing hunger and homelessness, helping lead initiatives like Louisville United Against Hunger and founding a soup kitchen in Natchez, Mississippi.

Together, we reflect on our shared past and ask the deeper questions: What happened to us? Where has our faith evolved—or unraveled? What do we still hold in common?

If you grew up in fundamentalist or evangelical spaces and now find yourself wrestling with what to keep, what to leave behind, and what comes next—you’ll hear your own story echoing in ours.

Listen in on this remarkable reunion. SHOW NOTES

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This week, an original Beach Talk with Betsey Newenhuyse. We sit down for one of those conversations that moves from the deeply personal to the profoundly global.

Seven years after losing her husband Fritz, Betsey reflects on grief—not as something to “get over,” but as something to understand. She’s now editing a book on the journey of grief. Her insights are as honest as they are hopeful.

We also share the simple joy of a beautiful Easter and a California spring that reminds us life keeps renewing.

We dive into a world that feels increasingly unstable—from the renewed tensions in the Strait of Hormuz, where global energy and conflict collide, to questions about war, leadership, and whether peace talks can actually hold.

And then there’s a lift to the human spirit: the Artemis mission, reminding us what’s possible when we look upward instead of tearing each other apart.

We talk faith, politics, power, and the strange contradictions of our moment—from the Pope to populism, from scripture to strategy.

Join us for a thoughtful conversation that doesn’t shy away. Straight talk from the heart.

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(REPRISE) Ken welcomes back to the podcast the originator of the hashtag that launched a movement: #exvangelical, Blake Chastain. They discuss his new book, Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement Fighting Back. An undergraduate at an evangelical university in Central Indiana, Blake had questions - about the Bible, the exclusive truth claims, the identification with conservative politics, the indifference to Earth care, to race, to social justice, and finally, the full-on embrace of MAGA Trumpism. It was a crisis of faith. When his hashtag went viral, CBS called him for a life-changing interview. Blake started The Exvangelical Podcast. In a wide-ranging conversation, Ken and Blake explore the history of evangelicalism and the contributing factors that have led to the evangelicalism we know today. SHOW NOTES

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Originally Aired November 15, 2024

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REPRISE - When Ken researched his Bible School classmate, Melvin Warren, he stumbled across Dr. Curtis’ book. It referenced a familiar, legendary press conference. In 1970, at the famed Arch entrance at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Melvin made a speech as the cameras rolled and journalists scribbled notes. He claimed that the school’s racism so marred his experience as a student that he tore up his diploma and tossed it into the trash. He made national news.

That incident not only drove Ken into a years-long quest to understand the dynamic of racism in his white evangelical church but it also played significantly into the doctoral dissertation of another Moody grad, Dr. Jesse Curtis. Dr. Curtis is now an assistant professor at Valparaiso University. Ken and Jesse compare notes on that momentous event. It prompted Ken’s Beached White Male journey. It also contributed to Dr. Curtis’ doctoral focus - now a book considered a “must-read” by both Jemar Tisby and Kristin Kobes du Mez. Ken and Jese discuss The Myth of Colorblind Christians: Evangelicals and White Supremacy in the Civil Rights Era.

Dr. Curtis covers the history of racism in the white evangelical church, going back to the Billy Graham era, when Howard Jones became the first African American evangelist on “The Team.” Jesse believes that the Church Growth Movement, founded by Donald McGavran, contributed to the segregation that was a feature in the explosive growth of the church at the turn of the century - including “ethnic” congregations and mega-churches. McGavran’s protege, C. Peter Wagner, added fuel to that dynamic. In their wide-ranging discussion, they talk about evangelical super-stars like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels as well as champions like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, and John Perkins. Curtis argues that the notion of “colorblind Christians” is a myth.

While he wrote some five years ago, the case is as relevant as ever. Just this week, in his inaugural address, the 47th President stated, “We will forge a society that is colorblind…” His supporters stood in enthusiastic applause. Ken and Jesse agree: this is not progress. SHOW NOTES

First Aired JAN 2025

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On this new episode of the Two Kens Podcast, Ken Fong and I sit down at a moment that feels like a hinge point in the American story. From the looming threat of a government shutdown to urgent debates over immigration reform and a President’s competency, we’re asking what kind of country we’re becoming—and who gets to shape that future.

We walk through the surprising political momentum we’re seeing in 2025, where Democrats have been quietly flipping seats and building toward what could be a transformative midterm election. At the same time, we wrestle with troubling rhetoric coming out of national leadership—language that blurs the line between faith and power, raising real concerns about pluralism, democracy, and the soul of the nation.

We also take an unflinching look at leadership itself—what we’re seeing, what we’re hearing, and what it may suggest about cognitive decline, communication, and the weight of age in high office. It’s not about cheap shots; it’s about clarity, responsibility, and truth.

We express our hope that the courts, the Constitution, and most importantly, the electorate still hold the line. The path forward is clear: pay attention, stay engaged, and make sure we all truly see what’s at stake.

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(REPRISE) Today, I welcome back a great friend of the show—ethicist, professor, pastor, and prolific author, Dr. David Gushee.

Over the years, David and I have talked through several of his groundbreaking works: The Moral Teachings of Jesus, Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies, Introducing Christian Ethics, and After Evangelicalism. But today, we’re returning to the book that started a movement—Changing Our Mind—a book that, remarkably, has never stopped selling since its first release ten years ago.

Industry veteran David Crumm recently reminded us that fewer than 1 percent of all books ever reach 40,000 copies sold. Most don’t even hit 2,000. And yet Changing Our Mind continues to travel—passed hand to hand, heart to heart—because people still need it. David tells me he receives messages every week from readers whose lives have been transformed. That kind of impact is rare.

We’re diving into the story behind this book: what prompted David to write it, the initial response, and the personal price he paid. Lost invitations, Christian booksellers who wouldn’t carry his work, and critics who lined up to condemn him. But also, we talk about the courage of those who dared to praise the book—and the remarkable stories that have come back from readers.

We’ll explore the deep divides in today’s church—the boardroom wrestling matches, the “holy haters,” and the rise of Christian nationalism. And, in this Advent season, we’ll ask: What needs to come to an end? And what new future are we longing for?

We’ll also hear what David is working on now, what he’s seeing in the classroom, and what he hopes for in 2026. SHOW NOTES

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In Honor of Dr. John Perkins 1931-2026

(REPRISE) Ken is pleased to welcome Lisa Sharon Harper and her new groundbreaking book, Fortune - How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All. It all began with the results of her submission of DNA to Ancestry.com. Lisa learned of her Nigerian roots - and ancestry that extends all the way back to the onset of slavery in America in the 1600s. Lisa shares her story of awakenings, which began when she became a Christian as a high school student in Young Life. She soon learned that her new faith was inextricably linked to white Republican politics - her activist mother was horrified. At Rutgers, as an undergraduate, she was active in Campus Crusade for Christ. She encountered the writings of John Perkins. In her book, Lisa traces the history of her family tree including the Lawrences, the Weeks, and the Fortune Magee Game born in 1689. Her family lived with the heavy consequence of race laws that governed slavery and defined "whiteness" as they were written over 300 years. Jesus, Lisa reminds us, was not white; he was brown, indigenous, and colonized - and killed by Empire. Lisa has a great insight into "white fragility" - it's worse. Resistance has been weaponized. Lisa traveled with "Nuns on the Bus," uncovering the roots of the MAGA narrative. SHOW NOTES

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REPRISE - After attending a recent event featuring Dr. Jemar Tisby, I had the chance to connect with the host of that gathering, Professor Jessica Wai-Fong Wong, Associate Professor of Systematic Theology at Azusa Pacific University and author of the groundbreaking book Disordered: Holy Icons and Racial Myths.

In this episode, we reflect on that event, where Dr. Tisby shared moving stories about his relationship with the late Dr. Bill Pennell of Fuller Theological Seminary—a pioneering voice in racial awareness whose bold challenges to white evangelicalism began in the late '60s and continued for decades.

Dr. Wong, herself deeply influenced by Dr. Pennell’s legacy, joins me for a conversation that dives into the concept of whiteness as an archetype and its enduring impact on Christian theology and the history of race. Drawing from her own journey as a Chinese American woman raised in predominantly white spaces in Texas, Dr. Wong shares insights from her book, including what it means to "aspire to whiteness" and the painful experience of being cast as an "anti-icon" in a white-dominated religious context.

We also explore my own experience within a Korean megachurch in Southern California, examining how whiteness becomes synonymous with order, while everyone else—Black, brown, Asian, Jewish, or female—is often seen as a threat to it.

This is more than a theological discussion—it’s a deep dive into history, identity, and the present-day political and spiritual moment we’re all navigating. SHOW NOTES

Originally aired April 2025

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