This is an episode which I have been longing to record. John Carnochan and Karyn McCluskey are, for me, towering figures in Scotland's ACEs movement. They were founding members of the groundbreaking Violence Reduction Unit established within the Strathclyde Police Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Reduction_Unit). They would both give credit to others for the building of that unit and they do that on the podcast, but they were instrumental in its success. Both are charismatic, clear-sighted, pragmatic and principled. They helped to change the culture of policing in, what was then, Strathclyde Region and influenced change far beyond that.

They tackled what was then an appalling climate of violence in Scotland and had the courage to turn their backs on the standard remedy of more police, harsher punishments and a massive increase in the prison population. They recognised that "prevention" and "deterrence" were not synonyms and were prepared to tackle the causes of crime.

They saw the importance of improving public services, memorably calling for more health visitors rather than more police officers. They listened to victims and to perpetrators and drew widely on data and research and they had an impact.

They are both wonderful communicators with the ability to generate stunning phrases and aphorisms at the drop of a proverbial hat. They understood, and understand, the power of stories and used that relentlessly to engage, motivate and inspire others.

Above all they brought, and bring, an intense humanity to all that they do. They are as far from the caricature of "bleeding-heart liberals" or "woke warriors" as it possible to be, but they are unafraid to argue with John Major's assertion that we need to"condemn a little more and understand a little less". They are clear that, regardless of how we deal with crime and criminals, we will change little without understanding, curiosity and a willingness to learn.

Remarkably, they not only manage to illustrate all of these points in this episode, they also help us to reflect on the ACEs movement more generally and the lessons that we need to learn.

It is an episode worth learning from

For anyone interested in finding out more about the VRU, here are a number of links

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/25/scottish-violence-reduction-unit-radical-change

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhFDsONaA5Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjvqUWl4lkA