There is a moment in the Joe Penhall/David Fincher Netflix series Mindhunter when character Bill Tench displays the various so-called “Manson girls” in their before Manson periods, exemplars of suburban, middle or apple middle class female life at the time, looking like valedictorian photos of which at least one was and then displays the figure of Charles Manson’s at his most wild eyed and hirsute, and asks "how did those girls end up with him?" Part of being a human being in the world in general but the social world in particular is internalizing semi-formal rules about what is predictable or even inevitable in human behavior, as well as the sorts of identities and the boundaries that go into defining any identity. These internalizations involve experience with was is considered common and well as deeply ingrained beliefs about human nature. For a time, the Manson case appeared to obliterate many of these beliefs about the social world and, above all, was one of those singular criminal events that brought us face to face with some of the worst capacities in the human being, especially if we had forgotten or never known such capacities. Because it is such an outsized crime in 20th century History it seems only inevitable that further research and evidence, such as the incredibly hard work of Tom O’Neill, for example, would be added to the case. Yet most of the facts of the case remain unchanged while there is wide speculation and research into motives and sensibilities. I relished having Deb back on the show for this episode, perhaps our longest one to date. She brings a no nonsense, almost scientific attitude towards the case. In preparation for this episode I read more than I had ever before when first encountering the crimes, especially Ed Sanders’ The Family, which for me was a revelation. We do hope we can add to halloween spirit with this one.

Inside this episode with your return co-host, Madame B and her bio

Madame B (aka Deb) grew up in Chicago in the 1970s, when life was a blur of Donny Osmond posters, Saturday-night roller rinks, and the occasional hooky day at Oak Street Beach. By age 11, Deb was nose-deep in Helter Skelter, Vincent Bugliosi’s account of the Manson Family Murders, the first in a long, ever-growing stack of true-crime books that would shape her lifelong obsession. The combination of the long shadow of the Vietnam War, Watergate, and now serial killers hiding in plain sight created the perfect storm for a morbidly curious and (more than slightly) weird kid.In this episode, she and Mitch go deep into the Charles Manson saga, far beyond the tabloid clichés and acid-fueled headlines. They dig into how the hippie dream went sideways, how the Family drifted through California communes and ended up crashing at Beach Boy Dennis Wilson’s house, and how Doris Day factors into the story in a way most people aren't aware of. They unpack the drugs, the psychological manipulation, and the charisma that let one scrawny ex-con play Jesus Christ, Satan, and wannabe rock star all in the same breath — the whole acid-drenched cocktail that turned "peace and love" into paranoia and bloodshed.They also shine a light on the women of the Family and how smart, searching, lonely girls from the suburbs ended up becoming feverish disciples of a clownish charlatan twenty years older than them who had spent the overwhelming majority of his adult life in prison. And because history loves to repeat itself, Deb and Mitch draw parallels between the cult tactics of the Manson Family and today’s influencer culture and political extremism — the online “families” built around ego, control, and blind devotion, where the charisma comes with a ring light instead of a guitar.For Madame B, true crime isn’t about glamorizing the freaks. It’s about seeing how ordinary people get pulled into extraordinary evil, and learning to recognize the next Manson when he inevitably starts his own podcast.