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Welcome back to Two Kens with my good friend, Ken Fong.

Every so often we record a conversation that challenges us as much as it challenges our listeners. This is one of those episodes.

We begin with a hilarious - but surprisingly insightful - clip from Leslie Jones that opens the door to an honest conversation about race, the myth of colorblindness, code-switching, white fragility, and the stories America tells itself.

Then we turn to Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, where Odysseus is portrayed not as an untouchable hero but as a man scarred by war. It raises powerful questions about trauma, empathy, and whether compassion still has a place in a culture that rewards certainty.

Finally, we welcome musician Joseph Tseng, whose remarkable album Shanghai: An American Story explores immigration, identity, family, and belonging.

Ken and I aren't trying to win arguments. We're trying to ask better questions, believing that curiosity, empathy, and honest conversation still have the power to change us.

Robin D’Angelo - White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism

Leslie Jones on Colorblind White Guys

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