In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I continue the conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom, moving deeper into the origins and intent behind the In2:In Thinking Network and what it truly means to “think about our thinking.”

Bill shares the lesser-known backstory of how In2:In Thinking came to be, from its early roots as the West Coast Quality Forum to the deliberate choice to move beyond Deming’s name alone. He explains why creating new language matters when changing systems, and how words like “quality,” “thinking,” and even “together” can trap us in old meanings unless we consciously redefine them.

The discussion turns to incentives, commissions, and performance management, one of the most difficult and controversial areas of applying Deming’s philosophy. Through real-world examples from sales organizations, manufacturing, and leadership roles, we explore how individual incentives often drive behavior that harms the system as a whole, even when intentions are good. Bill and I unpack why these problems aren’t about “bad people,” but about systems that reward the wrong outcomes.

Lori introduces curiosity as a unifying theme, curiosity not just about external problems, but about our own assumptions, beliefs, and patterns of thinking. We connect curiosity to empathy, beginner’s mind, and the ability to see work as “part of” a larger system rather than isolated tasks. From parenting to leadership to organizational design, the conversation highlights how asking better questions can unlock better action.

The episode closes by reinforcing a critical point: In2:In Thinking is not about endless reflection. Thinking about thinking must ultimately lead to better decisions, better cooperation, and better results. This balance between mindfulness and action, reflection, and delivery is at the heart of Deming’s work and the mission of the In2:In Thinking Network.

To kick start season 6 of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom. Together, we explore how W. Edwards Deming’s philosophy continues to challenge prevailing styles of management, and why curiosity, systems thinking, and better questions matter more than ever in today’s digital and organizational landscape.

Lori shares her personal journey from Georgia Tech to the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham, describing the “light-bulb moment” that came from discovering Deming’s work. She reflects on learning in an environment without grades, without competition, and with a deep emphasis on cooperation, intrinsic motivation, and real-world application. Her story illustrates how Deming’s ideas resonate with people who sense that “something is off” in traditional management but lack the language to name it.

Dr. Bellows expands the discussion by reflecting on Deming’s later years, his frustration at being misunderstood, and his push to move beyond prescriptions like the 14 Points toward deeper thinking about our thinking. He recounts the origins of the In2:In Thinking Network, the importance of making Deming’s ideas accessible, and why changing words and the meaning behind them matters when changing systems.

Across the episode, we connect Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge to modern challenges in education, large enterprises, and digital transformation. From AI and critical thinking to burnout inside massive organizations, this conversation highlights why real change doesn’t come from tools or methods alone, but from learning to see systems differently, ask better questions, and create environments where people can truly learn.

Show Notes:

http://www.in2in.org/

https://www.in2in.org/contact

I have a conversation with Diane Kulisek in this episode. Diane, a veteran in quality systems and regulatory affairs, shares her journey from Gillette to Rocketdyne to Johnson & Johnson, weaving in the principles of Deming and the realities of complex, high-stakes industries. We dive into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality and how they’ve shaped Diane’s extraordinary career across aerospace, consumer products, and medical device manufacturing.

We start with Diane’s early work at Gillette, where she first encountered military-grade quality standards, and move into her groundbreaking experience at Rocketdyne. There, she managed space shuttle main engine avionics and led self-managed teams. Diane highlights the power of elected management and the deep cultural dysfunctions she observed, drawing sharp analogies to adult children of alcoholics and the normalization of deviance in corporate environments.

Our conversation then pivots to regulatory complexity. Diane explains how compliance efforts in medical device manufacturing must transcend minimum standards to uphold the priceless value of human life. She critiques the profit-centric motives of insurance companies and exposes the structural misalignments that can compromise quality in favor of greed and speed.

We also explore the limitations and potential of AI in auditing, with Diane emphasizing the importance of human experience in identifying risk and systemic failures. She proposes the provocative idea of creating an “AI Deming,” using Deming’s extensive body of work to model principled decision-making.

Diane’s reflections bring a critical eye to regulatory frameworks, the ethics of risk management, and the potential of technology to augment human insight. Through it all, she remains grounded in Deming’s enduring vision that quality is a moral imperative and a societal good.

This is Diane's LinkedIn Page:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dkulisek

Show Notes:

1: https://www.scribd.com/document/451480272/MIL-Q-9858A-Quality-Program-Requirements-pdf

2: https://adultchildren.org

3: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/16.305

4: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB991862606575154843

5: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/708066main_Shuttle_Bibliography_2-ebook.pdf?emrc=c67e14

6: https://www.irvinestandard.com/2023/johnson-johnsons-innovation-irvine-roots-and-credo-to-give-back/

7: https://asq.org/-/media/ASQ-Supplemental-Media-Import/1/3/9/2/6/ar_1106_105018.pdf

8: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/oalj/PUBLIC/WHISTLEBLOWER/REFERENCES/STATUTES/SARBANES_OXLEY_ACT_OF_2002.PDF

9: https://store.pda.org/TableOfContents/Risk_Assessment_Ch01.pdf

10: https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/class-action-lawsuit-against-unitedhealths-ai-claim-denials-advances

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