Oliver County has become one of the epicenters in the fight over data centers in North Dakota, and county State's Attorney Patrick Waters has become a lightening rod in that fight.

His is a fascinating anecdote illustrating how overheated the data center debate has become.

"If you look at the data center issue in Oliver County, there are a couple Facebook pages that are solely designed to create a discourse about data centers," he said on this episode of Plain Talk. "On these Facebook pages, there is an unbelievable amount of threatening behavior going on."

"I am talking about people that are posting threatening to shoot people, threatening to attack workers who are working on the data center. Posting photos of firearms and of guillotines," he continued. "And these people have become so emboldened that they think that this is appropriate behavior."

Waters denounced these behaviors, and the invective and name-calling in these debates, but has also used some of his own. When controversy came up over his stepson, and employee, operating a purported news website that has published articles about his private practice client, and data centers, he called the critic in an email to the newsmedia a "cowardly, anonymous, unscrupulous, bent, keyboard warrior."

He also called them a "sub-creature" and a "timid and gossip-ridden snake."

Asked about that language, in the context of his own criticism of intemperate behavior, Waters said it was justified by what he perceived as an attack on his stepson, particularly because the critic brought up his stepson's criminal record.

"People are free to have their own opinions about anything. People are free to report things to the media and people are free to ask difficult questions. And I respect that," he said. "What I don't respect is this idea that because I'm unpopular in Oliver County because I advise the county commissioners to follow the law that they can then do everything that I do and say becomes a target of attack. And by bringing my family into this, I thought that that was low."

Waters is also the subject of a removal petition that is currently under investigation by Attorney General Drew Wrigley's office. Wrigley will send a recommendation on removal to Gov. Kelly Armstrong when that process is completed.

"The petition to remove me is full of lies," Waters said. "I fully expect the governor to to clear me, and I suspect that there'll be a decision made this week."

Also on this episode, co-host Chad Oban and I discuss the beginning of this week's special legislative session, including the debate over banning kratom, banning nondisclosure agreements for data center projects, and unwinding the financial mess around a stalled military museum project.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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Martha Njolomole is an economist with the American Experiment North Dakota and the author of a new report on North Dakota's budget trends called "From Boom to Balance: Smart Spending for an Uncertain Future."

Her argument is that North Dakota is spending too much money. "We've seen in the last couple years that North Dakota is spending more money than it is collecting particularly in the general fund budget which is really what most people refer to as as the budget," she said on this episode of Plain Talk.

She said this "structured deficit" has been obscured by balances from the state's various funds, but contends "that at a certain point you're going to run out of those balances and you won't be able to maintain your current spending trends."

"It's pretty much like a family that earns $3,000 a month but they're living at $4,000 a month," she contends.

North Dakotans have been feeling the impact of this, she says, "I think probably because of the oil and gas industry a lot of taxpayers...don't feel the pain and the cost of big government in North Dakota."

Njolomole and her group aren't alone in flagging this spending trend. In April, when Gov. Kelly Armstrong released his budget guidelines for the coming biennium, he called the state's spending growth "unsustainable." Particularly in that a lot of the state's spending is based on reserve funds and not ongoing revenues.

In fact, in every budget cycle since the 2017-2019 biennium, most of the state's spending has come from these so-called "special funds" as opposed to general fund revenues from things like the sales and income taxes.

Despite this, the American Experiment North Dakota report also calls for eliminating North Dakota's income tax, something we challenged Njolomole on. How can you advocate reducing revenues at a time when spending is exceeding revenues? This report also criticizes North Dakota for being too dependent on revenues from oil and gas activity, but wouldn't eliminating the income tax make the state more dependent on those revenues?

We asked Njolomole about it.

Also on this episode, co-host Chad Oban and I discuss the Protect College Sports Act, and whether or not the status quo in college sports deserves to be protected.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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Gov. Kelly Armstrong was asked recently on a talk radio program about bigoted comments made by state Rep. Desiree Morton, a fellow Republican. "That's dumb," he said of her attacks on Somali immigrants and Muslims.

On this episode of Plain Talk, we dive into correspondence Rep. Morton had with one of her constituents in which she continues to stand by those bigoted comments.

"They have taken over city after city and have instituted Sharia Law in many areas. In their own words they have said that they hate America and everything she stands for," Morton wrote to her constituent. "They hate our Constitution and defy our laws. Their goal is to take over America and institute Sharia Law just as they have done in other countries around the world. This isn't just true for Somalians, but for many who hold to the ideology of Islam."

Also, co-host Chad Oban and I take some feedback from a listener who says that we're wrong when we say that Flock cameras are not a constitutional violation, and we discuss Sen. Kevin Cramer pushing back on President Donald Trump's administration harder than he ever has in the past.

The issue is wetlands policy from President Joe Biden's time in office, which have been allowed to linger under the Trump administration, and Cramer has taken a hard stand, putting a hold on confirmation all of President Trump's nominees until he addresses the matter.

We also discuss whether Cramer will seek re-election when he's on the ballot again in 2030. The Senator says he isn't sure. We discuss the implications.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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As North Dakota's charitable gaming industry as exploded into what can more fairly be called the casino industry, there's been a trend toward nonprofits buying up for-profit hospitality establishments -- bars and restaurants -- to protect turf for games like electronic pull tab machines and blackjack tables.

How does the hospitality industry feel about that?

"We have members on both sides of the issue, and so we don't have the luxury of picking a side, and I don't necessarily think we should," Terry Effertz said on this episode of Plain Talk.

Effertz is the executive director of the North Dakota Hospitality Association, which represents the state's bars, restaurants and hotels. She said in many ways, the growth in charitable gaming has been a boon to many small businesses in her industry. "We went from about $156 million in pre-electronic pull tab gaming proceeds, gross proceeds to $2.3 billion now," she said. "And so, in less than a decade, look at that explosive growth. There's a lot of opportunities. When you see a small business that may not make it, they might take that option. The rent proceeds have helped keep the lights on in some of those small town bars as well."

One thing that would help, and might serve as a buttress against nonprofits buying up bars and restaurants, is some changes to the state's caps on how much an establishment owner can receive in rent from a gaming operation.

"They're more interested in what the rent proceeds are," Effertz said of her membership, "because they see, in some cases millions, of dollars filtering through their business through the gaming and they're making a couple grand a month off of their rent proceeds. And so I think that there is some feeling of inequity in some places."

But she acknowledged that this might be a tough sell, politically. "It's hard for us to go in and say, 'Hey, we're the purveyors of your vices. Give us some of that charity's money.' Right?' Like, it's a hard thing to say we deserve more when it's going for a charitable purpose."

Also on this episode, we discuss the Flock camera debate in North Dakota's communities, and react to listener feedback from someone who has been struggling with kratom addiction.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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"Over 80% of North Dotans who took this think that that we need to do a better job," Superintendent of Public Schools Levi Bachmeier said on this episode of Plain Talk. "And I can't help but agree when I visit schools and we have a critical workforce shortage."

He's referring to a recent survey conducted by his department. One way Bachmeier thinks schools can do a better job, and something that's backed up by sentiments from North Dakotans in the survey, is teacher pay.

"I'll be the first to say that pay doesn't solve every problem. We've got to make sure that teachers feel like their work is sustainable and meaningful," he said. "Money can't ever be a replacement for leadership, but at the same time, that gap--if you compare what teachers make to others who hold a bachelor's degree, I mean, that's a problem."

"And it isn't just a problem because I think we should pay teachers more," he continued. "It's a problem because we have schools across our state that don't have teachers in the classroom."

Bachmeier said he's heard "from juniors in Wishek who wanted to be reading books and working on projects together in English class" but "they're forced to be taking an asynchronous online class."

Bachmeier also talked about other results from the survey and their implications for education policy, including technology in the classroom, and whether virtual learning is really the best way to address snow days during harsh winter weather.

On that last, Bachmeier thinks it may be better to just let the kids have a day off.

"I'm a big believer in as many quality minutes as possible, and I'll bet on kids in a class classroom with each other and a teacher versus trying to log on a device any day of the week," he said.

Also on this episode, co-host Chad Oban and I discuss the list of bills lawmakers on the Legislative Management Committee forwarded for the upcoming special session in September, and one resolution, calling for clemency for the extremists jailed after their murderous involvement in the infamous Medina shootout, which wasn't forwarded.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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Gov. Kelly Armstrong called a special session to address what he and public health officials say is a crisis related to unregulated says of kratom in its natural and synthetic forms. Sen. Tim Mathern, a Fargo Democrat, says the session is unneccessary, but if we're going to have it, he'd rather it be focused on data centers.

"Should we deal with kratom? Yes. Are there people who are hurt by it? Yes. There are many other substances that people are hurt by," he said. "Hundreds more persons per year die of alcohol. Hundreds more die per year of tobacco use and all kinds of other issues. So, let's address this fine, but we should be dealing with other issues also."

"Most citizens of North Dakota want attention on data centers, not on kratum," he continued. "Most citizens don't even know what it's about."

Mathern is trying to get two bills into consideration during the session. One would impose a one-year moratorium on data center construction, while the other would ban data center companies from seeking nondisclosure agreements with public officials.

But the latter would only apply to data center companies.

The legislation "basically sets forth the concerns we have about data centers," Mathern said. "It clearly defines what a data center is, what a developer is, what a non-disclosure agreement is. It actually prohibits from any government official whether they're staff or elected any political subdivision or the state from signing or participating in a non-disclosure agreement."

Mathern also addressed the financial controversy around a stalled military museum project on the state capitol grounds which could cost taxpayes tens of millions of dollars.

"This is the wrong way of making decisions," Mathern said, noting that lawmakers "made a deal" to build the museum that would have it receive public funding that would match private fundraising. But construction on the project began without the private fundraising in place, and now it's out of money.

"I'm thinking this is more of a management issue, and this session should not be used to bail out management decisions or we're going down a path that is destructive to legislative decision making," Mathern said.

Also on this session, co-host Chad Oban and I discuss North Dakota's problems with charitable gaming which, these days, is beginning to look less and less charitable all the time, and more and more like a deeply lucrative casino industry.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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There's been a lot of talk in North Dakota in recent weeks about kratom after Gov. Kelly Armstrong issued executive orders banning the substance and called lawmakers into a special session in Bismarck with an eye toward making that ban permanent.

But what does the kratom industry think about it?

"We agree with the governor in part and we disagree in another part," Mac Haddow said on this episode of Plain Talk. "It's a lot like being married, right? We have to get it right at the end."

Haddow is a former state lawmaker, and a Reagan-era chief of staff for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Currently, he's a senior fellow on public policy at the American Kratom Association, and where he and his organization agree with Armstrong is on synthetic kratom.

He said that colloquial descriptors like "gas station heroin" are accurate. "There's no question it's the same as an opioid." But on a previous episode of Plain Talk, Armstrong said the natural, botanical variety of kratom should be banned too, and that's where Haddow and his group diverge.

Natural kratom is a different animal. "This is akin to what happened during Prohibition," he argued. "We don't call moonshine corn and we certainly don't call caffeine coffee. These are things that need to be closely examined and properly regulated."

Haddow argues that good policy coming out of this session would ban synthetic kratom and regulate the natural variety to ensure that it's only available to adults and is transparent about things like ingredients and dosage.

Also on this episode, co-host Chad Oban and I responded to listener feedback and talked about renewed controversy around Fargo-area state lawmaker Rep. Desiree Morton. In June, Morton attacked fellow lawmakers for allowing Somali volunteers on their campaigns. More recently, in private messages, Morton insinuated that a ward proposal for Fargo's city government would allow "imports" to take over the city.

Morton said in her message that she's "not a hater," but Oban disagrees. "She is a hater," he said. "She's a bigot. She's a racist."

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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On this episode of Plain Talk, recorded on location inside Brewhalla at the TedXFargo event, we talked about a deeply uncomfortable topic.

Suicide, namely. Our guest was Haley DeGreve, founder of the Gray Matters Collective, an advocacy group focused on mental health issues which also provides training for the public on how to recognize mental health episodes and health.

We think about CPR training, and first aid training, but what about someone who is having a manic episode, or contemplating suicide? "Where our organization has leaned into that gray area is there are people like you and I who care, but we don't know how to help," DeGreve told us. "We're not trained in this. And so, we actually spend a lot of our funding on training to get people trained so, if you're in the grocery store and you see someone having a mental breakdown, you know what to do. You know how to connect them."

Also on this episode, co-host Chad Oban and I discussed a recent, tacit acknowledgement that property tax exemptions have a real cost for the public.

"The true thing is that when we give away an exemption, there's a cost," I argued. "Maybe the cost is worth paying, right? We can have a debate about that, but it is a cost and we can't ignore it."

We also discussed the back lash against data centers, and how the public's shift towards online populism has influenced that. "This is what happens when there's an issue that's very complicated and you have a fringe that's sort of running the messaging on this that everything is terrible," I said.

The real threat of AI, I argue, is that it can make nonsense arguments seem plausible. "Any moron can sound like Hemingway with ChatGPT," I said.

If you want to participate in Plain Talk, just give us a call or text at 701-587-3141. It's super easy — leave your message, tell us your name and where you're from, and we might feature it on an upcoming episode. To subscribe to Plain Talk, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts or use one of the links below.

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