Michael Crow is the president of Arizona State University, which U.S. News & World Report has called the most innovative school in the country for 11 years running. He tells Steve about why higher education needs to change, and how A.S.U. is leading the way. Plus: Steve has an announcement about the podcast.

• SOURCES:
  • Michael Crow, president of Arizona State University.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Fifth Wave: The Evolution of American Higher Education, by Michael Crow (2020).
  • "College Admissions Shocker!," by Frank Bruni (New York Times, 2016).
  • New American University.
  • Dreamscape Learn.
  • University Innovation Alliance.
  • FYI.AI.

• EXTRAS:
  • "Chemistry, Evolved," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2025).
  • "America’s Math Curriculum Doesn’t Add Up," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
  • Data Science 4 Everyone.

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Michael Greenstone knows it’s corny, but he wants to make the world a better place — by tracking the impact of air quality, developing pollution markets in India, and … starting a podcast, which Steve says proves he’s over the hill.

• SOURCES:
  • Michael Greenstone, professor of economics at the University of Chicago.

• RESOURCES:
  • "New evidence on the impact of sustained exposure to air pollution on life expectancy from China's Huai River Policy," by Avraham Ebenstein, Maoyong Fan, Michael Greenstone, Guojun He, and Maigeng Zhou (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2017).
  • "Evidence on the impact of sustained exposure to air pollution on life expectancy from China's Huai River policy," by Yuyu Chen, Avraham Ebenstein, Michael Greenstone, and Hongbin Li (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2013).
  • Shocked, podcast.
  • Air Quality Life Index (AQLI).
  • Emissions Market Accelerator.
  • Tropical Forest Forever Facility (TFFF).

• EXTRAS:
  • "This Is Your Brain on Pollution," by Freakonomics Radio (2021).
  • "The Simple Economics of Saving the Amazon Rainforest", by People I (Mostly) Admire (2020).

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Suleika Jaouad was diagnosed with cancer at 22. She made her illness the subject of a New York Times column and a memoir, Between Two Kingdoms. She and Steve talk about what it means to live with a potentially fatal illness, how to talk to people who've gone through a tragedy, and ways to encourage medical donations.

• SOURCES:
  • Suleika Jaouad, author.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life, by Suleika Jaouad (2025).
  • The Alchemy Journal, by Suleika Jaouad (2025).
  • “The Art of Survival,” by Jennifer Senior (The Atlantic, 2024).
  • American Symphony, film by Matthew Heineman (2023).
  • Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted, by Suleika Jaouad (2021).
  • “Max Ritvo, Poet Who Chronicled His Cancer Fight, Dies at 25,” by John Schwartz (The New York Times, 2016).
  • “Life, Interrupted,” column by Suleika Jaouad (The New York Times, 2012-2015).
  • The Fault in Our Stars, by John Green (2012).
  • Bright-sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America, by Barbara Ehrenreich (2009).
  • The Isolation Journals, newsletter by Suleika Jaouad.

• EXTRAS:
  • “John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).
  • “Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence?” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

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