In episode 113, Theresa and Kathryn sit down with Eric Songer, a veteran middle school music educator, to explore what it really means to move from “music for all” to “all music.” Drawing from his own unconventional path into music—sparked by pop radio and a love for popular culture—Eric shares how his teaching philosophy centers on expanding access to music-making beyond traditional ensembles. He describes how incorporating genres like rock, hip hop, bluegrass, and mariachi, along with opportunities in songwriting, production, and student-led ensembles, creates more entry points for students to engage meaningfully with music.

Eric offers a wide range of practical strategies for bringing this vision to life, from launching after-school “School of Rock” programs to embedding composition, improvisation, and music technology into the regular band curriculum. He also highlights the importance of student agency—encouraging teachers to say “yes” to student ideas, even when it means learning alongside them. Throughout the conversation, Eric emphasizes that these approaches don’t detract from traditional programs but instead deepen student engagement, broaden participation, and help more students see themselves as musicians.

Connect with Eric and Learn More:

• Website
• YouTube Channel
• Facebook
• Instagram

Resources from this Episode:

• Association for Popular Music Education
• Shed the Music
• Music Will
• 3 Strings
• Episode 53 - The Most Important Question You can Ask in Music Education
• Episode 112 - We Know We Can: Building Community Through Hip-Hop

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In this episode, Theresa and Kathryn are joined by Andrew Wang, a K–12 music teacher who brings hip-hop culture to life in a neurodivergent-centered classroom. Drawing from his own experiences as a neurodivergent learner, Andrew shares how hip-hop became both a personal outlet and a powerful teaching tool. He describes his work in an inclusive school setting, where music supports not only musical growth but also communication, confidence, and social-emotional development. By incorporating elements like beatboxing, call-and-response, and student-selected music, Andrew creates an engaging environment where all students can participate and feel a sense of belonging.

Throughout the conversation, Andrew emphasizes that hip-hop is more than just music, it’s a culture rooted in community, identity, and expression. He highlights practical ways teachers can bring hip-hop into any classroom, from general music to traditional ensembles, while still meeting standards and maintaining intentionality. The discussion also explores how hip-hop can foster deeper student connections, encourage critical thinking, and support lifelong musical engagement. Ultimately, Andrew makes a compelling case for expanding what counts as “valuable” in music education, showing how culturally relevant, student-centered approaches can empower learners of all backgrounds.

Connect with Andrew and Learn More:

• Email: hiphopneuroed@gmail.com
• Website: Neuro Hip Hop
• Links: https://popl.co/card/LtviKNP9/1/dash

Additional Resources from this Episode

• Book - Hip Hop Can Save America, by Manny Faces
• Book - Yonkers the Lost City of Hip Hop, by Jerome Enders
• Book - For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood, by Chris Emdin
• Book - From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood, by Chris Emdin and Sam Seidel
• Website: We Got Our Own Thang - Real Talk from AJ Woodson
• Neurodivergent Music Network

Learn more about Pass the Baton

• Pass the Baton Book Study through VanderCook College of Music
• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In Episode 111, Meagan Thorup shares her journey toward building a music classroom centered on creativity, reflection, and lifelong musicianship. Grounded in the belief that she is not training professional musicians but equipping students with skills they can carry beyond school, Meagan describes how her teaching has evolved through continuous experimentation and student feedback. She highlights the power of incorporating composition into ensemble settings, walking through her process of scaffolded, collaborative class compositions that move from simple melodies to student-led arrangements. Through trial and error - and a willingness to listen when things don’t work - Meagan has created experiences where students take ownership, discover their creative voice, and feel a genuine sense of pride in what they create.

The conversation also explores how to cultivate independence through intentional practice and accountability. Meagan explains her shift away from traditional practice logs toward a more reflective, skill-based approach that helps students learn how to practice effectively. By integrating accountability partners, peer collaboration, and ongoing reflection, students not only improve musically but also develop habits they can apply beyond the classroom. Throughout the episode, Meagan emphasizes the importance of viewing teaching as a partnership with students - one where their voices, ideas, and experiences shape the learning process. Listeners will walk away with practical strategies and a powerful reminder: when students are given ownership and the space to create, they can exceed our expectations in meaningful and surprising ways.

Connect with Meagan and Learn More:

• Website: My Happy Teaching Life
• Orchestra Music: Starlight Tango
• Orchestra Music - Through the Fog
• YouTube Channel - Music Theory Pro Tips

Other Resources to Check Out:

• Book: Atomic Habits, by James Clear
• Book: The Talent Code, by Daniel Coyle
• Pass the Baton Book Study, VanderCook College of Music
• Episode 109: Programming for Agency: Choosing Repertoire That Empowers Students

Connect with Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In episode 110, Theresa and Kathryn are joined by Alexis Ganos and Krista Witak, two middle school orchestra teachers who co-teach in a unique, collaborative model designed to foster student agency. They share how their program has evolved over time; from rethinking traditional structures to creating a more student-centered environment where learners take ownership of their musical growth. Through intentional use of learning targets, student choice, reflective journaling, and flexible assessments, Alexis and Krista empower students to understand their progress, set goals, and engage more deeply in the learning process.

The conversation also highlights how small, intentional shifts - like giving students leadership roles, involving them in repertoire decisions, and helping them create realistic practice plans - can lead to meaningful change. Alexis and Krista also reflect on the critical role of collaboration in this work, emphasizing how co-teaching, professional learning communities, and even informal connections with colleagues have shaped their teaching and supported their growth. They remind us that building student agency doesn’t happen overnight, but through consistent, thoughtful steps, and that we don’t have to do that work alone.

Connect with Alexis and Krista

• Email Alexis
• Email Krista

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In episode 109, Theresa and Kathryn are joined by music educator Mary Cogswell to explore how repertoire choices can help foster student agency in ensemble classrooms. The conversation begins with a discussion of flexible (flex) repertoire—music designed for ensembles with varying or unbalanced instrumentation. Mary explains how flex music expanded during the pandemic and how it can be used not only to accommodate instrumentation challenges but also to give students meaningful choices. When students can learn multiple parts and choose which one they perform, experiment with ensemble combinations, or rehearse in small chamber-like groups, they begin to take greater ownership of the music-making process.

The conversation then expands beyond flex music to highlight other repertoire and teaching approaches that invite creativity and decision-making. Theresa and Mary discuss pieces and curricular ideas that incorporate improvisation, composition, and flexible musical structures, allowing students to shape the music themselves. From adaptable beginning band works to compositions designed for creative exploration, the episode offers practical ways teachers can select and use repertoire that moves students from simply performing music to actively creating and directing their musical experiences.

Connect with Mary and learn more:

• Mary's website: Beginning Band and Beyond
• CreaTUNEity

Repertoire to Foster Student Agency

• View the full list
• Contribute to the repertoire list

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self-Reflection

In episode 108, Theresa and Kathryn sit down with Illinois band directors Kyle Rinke and Jaime Escatel to explore what it really means to center learners and cultivate student agency in music classrooms. Kyle shares how his early, competition-driven mindset gradually shifted after realizing that rankings and trophies weren’t building the buy-in or belonging he hoped for. By moving away from chair placements and toward flexible grouping, peer mentorship, and shared leadership opportunities, he found that students not only played better, but felt more valued. Jaime reflects on his time as Kyle’s student teacher and how those experiences shaped his own philosophy: if students feel safe, seen, and connected, the music-making will follow.

Throughout the conversation, Kyle and Jaime offer practical strategies for building community and ownership—from “question of the day” discussions and team-building challenges to student-led warmups, peer teaching, solo auditions decided by the ensemble, and structured opportunities for feedback. They emphasize that student-centered classrooms don’t mean a lack of structure; rather, they require intentional routines, clear expectations, and space for student voice. Most importantly, they remind listeners that this work takes time. When teachers prioritize relationships, create meaningful leadership roles, and invite students into decision-making, they foster not only stronger ensembles, but stronger, more connected young musicians.

Connect with Jaime and Kyle:

• krinke@nlsd122.org
• escateja@u5d.org

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In this episode, Kathryn and Theresa revisit the topic of student ownership and unpack four common mistakes teachers can unintentionally make when trying to foster it in their music classrooms. They discuss the “bait and switch” of offering choice only to revert back to teacher-centered control, the tendency to prioritize “my program” over students’ identities and interests, the assumption that students automatically know how to make meaningful choices, and the misconception that ownership is an occasional add-on rather than a guiding mindset. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize that these missteps are normal—and reflective practice is key to growth.

Listeners are encouraged to reframe their thinking: if student-centered music-making is meaningful enough to engage students, it must remain meaningful beyond the hook. That means scaffolding decision-making skills, embedding ownership into daily routines, and regularly asking, “Whose needs is this decision serving—the program or the students?” With practical examples and honest reflection, this episode offers a supportive reminder that strong programs grow from student ownership—not in spite of it.

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection

In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. David Dockan, assistant professor of music education at Louisiana State University, for a rich conversation about democratic practices in music classrooms and why they matter for student belonging, agency, and lifelong music-making. Drawing from his own experiences as a popular musician navigating traditional music education spaces, David shares how having to “collapse” parts of his musical identity shaped his teaching and research interests. He explains that democratic practices aren’t about politics or simply offering surface-level choices, but about intentionally sharing power with students so their voices genuinely matter in the classroom.

David introduces a practical framework for democratic music teaching that focuses on three key areas: rules and procedures, curriculum and repertoire, and pedagogy. Through concrete classroom examples—like co-creating norms, inviting students into repertoire decisions, and gradually releasing responsibility—he illustrates how teachers can move beyond efficiency toward deeper, more meaningful learning. Throughout the conversation, we explore how these practices support students’ sense of belonging, help them see themselves as musicians, and build the skills they need to make music independently long after they leave our classrooms. This episode offers both big-picture thinking and accessible entry points for teachers who want to create music spaces where students don’t just participate, but truly belong.

Connect with David and learn more:

• Website: http://DockanMusic.com
• Instagram & TikTok: @DockanMusic

Learn more about Pass the Baton:

• Pass the Baton website
• Join the Coffee Club
• Support Pass the Baton
• Amplify student voice with Exit Tickets for Self Reflection