Laura Federico sits down with Stephanie Wambugu, author of the critically acclaimed debut novel Lonely Crowds, to explore the intimate relationship between desire and suffering in the lives of Ruth and Maria.

Together, they unpack the complex dynamics of Ruth and Maria's decades-long friendship, examining how childhood shapes adult patterns of longing, the shadow Catholicism casts over pleasure in the novel, and why penance becomes inextricable from passion. Stephanie shares her perspective on trauma narratives in fiction, the problem with making suffering too tidy, and how secular life leaves us without clear pathways for moral absolution.

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Laura Federico

The Cycle Book

Stephanie Wambugu

Lonely Crowds

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TIMESTAMPS

04:49 — Why Stephanie believes desiring is better than being desired

06:21 — Ruth's patterns of desire and reenactment in Lonely Crowds

07:58 — Remembering vs. forgetting: The responsibility of memory

08:31 — Pop psychology and the trauma narrative

10:45 — How we narrativize traumatic events through language

17:12 — The compelling unavailable person

18:52 — Ruth as Maria’s acolyte

24:10 — Secular life and the search for moral absolution

25:08 — Religion as organizing principle in times of collective pain

28:37 — Mental illness without metaphor

32:01 — Why novels can hold unanswerable questions

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Our music, Hit Her Up, is written by Nakisso Peralta and performed by Chillers.