In this episode of the River Tiger Podcast, Marianne Davies is joined again by distinguished ecological psychologist Harry Heft for a wide-ranging exploration of how humans and other animals come to know, navigate, and participate in the worlds they inhabit.

Drawing on the pioneering work of James and Eleanor Gibson, alongside the often overlooked contributions of Roger Barker, Harry discusses how behaviour emerges not simply from individual traits or internal processes but through participation in places, practices, and relationships. Together, Marianne and Harry unpack Barker's concept of "behaviour settings," examining how classrooms, churches, sporting events, and everyday environments become stable social structures sustained by the coordinated actions of the people within them.

The conversation explores some of the central concepts of ecological psychology, including affordances, place, habitat, niche, and forms of life. Harry explains why environments are not passive backdrops to behaviour, but dynamic fields of possibilities that invite, constrain, and shape action. The discussion challenges conventional ideas of space as an empty container, proposing instead a world structured through place, movement, sequence, and time.

Marianne and Harry also examine what these ideas reveal about interspecies relationships. Through examples involving horses and dogs, they explore how social animals perceive opportunities for action, attune to movement and intention, and participate in shared practices with humans. The discussion offers fresh perspectives on learning, training, and communication across species, while also challenging commonly held assumptions about behaviourism and behaviour change.

The episode moves across a remarkable range of topics, from showjumping, kayaking, skiing, and wayfinding to children's exploration, navigation, and the impact of GPS technologies on our relationship with the environment. Harry suggests that navigation may be less like reading a map and more like following a melody, highlighting the deeply embodied and relational nature of skilled action.

Throughout the conversation, ecological psychology is connected with broader philosophical ideas, including George Herbert Mead's account of the self as something that emerges within ongoing social relations and collective activity. Together, Marianne and Harry offer a compelling vision of humans and other animals as participants in living systems, continuously shaped by the places they inhabit and the relationships they sustain.

This episode will resonate with anyone interested in ecological psychology, interspecies learning, movement and sport, education, place-based thinking, and the ways environments and relationships shape who we become.

My guest

Harry Heft

Link to Harry’s ResearchGate profile https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Harry-Heft

Denison University profile https://denison.edu/people/harry-heft