What does it take to build an outdoor culture where everyone belongs — not because they fit in, but because the outdoors makes room for all of us?

In this episode, Rob Carmichael sits down with Yuen Li Chan, founder of Nomad Adventure and one of Southeast Asia’s pioneers of outdoor and adventure education. Together, they explore what it means to lead with courage, care, and conviction, even when there’s no roadmap to follow.

From learning to climb on the limestone walls of Malaysia to opening the country’s first climbing gym, Yuen Li’s story is one of passion meeting purpose. She shares how fax machines, first ascents, failed assessments, and unexpected mentors shaped her leadership. And she reflects on why the outdoors became her place of belonging as a woman, a queer person, and a young Malaysian forging a new path in an emerging industry.

Rob and Yuen Li dive deep into why outdoor learning matters — not because it removes risk, but because it teaches us how to understand it. They talk about building teams that challenge us, creating cultures where care is a skill, and why a child’s smile in a rapid can be as transformational as any summit.

Whether you’re an educator, guide, leader, or lifelong adventurer, this conversation is an invitation to step into discomfort, listen deeply, and rediscover the small moments of wonder that keep us human.

Key ideas:
🧭 Fearless leadership: making values-driven decisions when no playbook exists
🧗 Belonging in the outdoors: gender, identity, and the “great equalizer.”
🌊 Risk competency vs. risk elimination: why adventure requires responsibility
🤝 Building culture: caring as the foundation of professionalism
🌱 Wonder in the small things: transformation through incremental moments