Atlas Wang (UT Austin faculty, XTX Research Director) joins us to explore two fascinating frontiers: the foundations of symbolic AI and the practical challenges of building AI systems for quantitative finance.

On the symbolic AI side, Atlas shares his recent work proving that neural networks can learn symbolic equations through gradient descent, a surprising result given that gradient descent is continuous while symbolic structures are discrete. We talked about why neural nets learn clean, compositional mathematical structures at all, what the mathematical tools involved are, and the broader implications for understanding reasoning in AI systems.

The conversation then turns to neuro-symbolic approaches in practice: agents that discover rules through continued learning, propose them symbolically, verify them against domain-specific checkers, and refine their understanding.

On the finance side, Atlas pulls back the curtain on what AI research looks like at a high-frequency trading firm. The core problem sounds simple (predict future prices from past data). Still, the challenge is extreme: markets are dominated by noise, predictions hover near zero correlation, and success means eking out tiny margins across astronomical numbers of trades. He explains why synthetic data techniques that work elsewhere don't translate easily, and why XTX is building time series foundation models rather than adapting language models.

We also discuss the convergence of hiring between frontier AI labs and quantitative finance, and why this is an exceptional moment for ML researchers to consider the finance industry.

Links:

• Why Neural Network Can Discover Symbolic Structures with Gradient-based Training: An Algebraic and Geometric Foundation for Neurosymbolic Reasoning - arxiv.org/abs/2506.21797
• Atlas website - https://www.vita-group.space/

Guest: Atlas Wang (UT Austin / XTX)

Hosts: Ravid Shwartz-Ziv & Allen Roush

Music: “Kid Kodi” — Blue Dot Sessions. Source: Free Music Archive. Licensed CC BY-NC 4.0.