TW: This episode includes honest discussion about grief, estrangement and suicidal ideation. Listener discretion is advised.

There is a kind of loss that arrives without a funeral. No casserole on the doorstep, no card in the mail, no ritual to mark it. It is the loss of people who are still alive, of communities that keep meeting without us, of the versions of ourselves we performed for decades. It is called estrangement, and for those of us who came out later in life or left the faith traditions that raised us, it may be one of the most present and least spoken parts of the whole story.

In this episode, Anne-Marie and her cohost Anna Empey sit with the word estrangement and everything it holds. Anne-Marie shares her experience of becoming estranged from her child, the devastation of it, and the slow, tender work of repair she is in now. Anna brings her own story of leaving the LDS faith she was raised in and learning to navigate family through boundaries, distance, and a love that refused to disappear. Together they name the things the culture rarely makes room for. That we can grieve someone who is still breathing. That healing does not require reconciliation. That rupture is not failure, and leaving is not always abandonment. Sometimes it is the most faithful thing we can do for ourselves.

This is a conversation we offer without tying it up neatly, because some of it is meant to stay open. If estrangement is part of your story, we hope you find some company here.

This episode mentions a previous episode about grief and coming out. You can find that episode here: https://youtu.be/DnrRcKN8oT4

Find the episode where Anna shares her coming out story here: https://youtu.be/XD_5QNn5IM8

Learn more about "The Grief Handbook" by Bridget McNulty here: https://bridgetmcnulty.com/the-grief-handbook/

You were never meant to do this alone. Authentically Us is a community of women who came out later in life and who understand the grief, the boundaries, and the becoming. We would love to walk alongside you. Join us at community.annemariezanzal.com.

In this revisited Season 5 favorite, Anne-Marie sits down with photographer Tonda McKay, who also happens to be her wife. Tonda came out at eighteen as a good Southern Baptist girl whose prayer partner became her first love, and she has spent the decades since building a life as a long-out lesbian in the South. She shares what those early years held: the isolation of believing she was the only one, the family rupture when her mother said she was dead to her, and the slow, joyful discovery of community through a liberal church softball team.

The conversation then turns to something the two of them know intimately. What is it actually like for someone who has been out for forty years to fall in love with a woman who is only just beginning her journey? Tonda speaks honestly about boundaries, patience, and trust, about learning that her new partner's grief was not about her, and about why being older changed everything. Her advice is tender and unvarnished, full of hard-won wisdom about red flags, self-respect, and why some loves are worth holding onto.

It is a episode about two women of the same age meeting from opposite ends of the same experience, and the contentment they found together. As Tonda puts it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with loving who you want to love, and love really does win eventually.

You can learn more about Tonda's photography work at https://tondamckay.com/

If Tonda and Anne-Marie's story stirred something in you, you do not have to walk your own journey alone. Authentically Us is a warm, grounded community for women exploring identity and coming out later in life, a soft place to land among others who understand. Whether someone is newly questioning or further along the path, community is where the healing happens. Come find your people at community.annemariezanzal.com.

This week on Coming Out & Beyond, Anne-Marie sits down with Keith Aron (he/they), a trans and queer transformational coach, writer, proudly witchy weirdo, and self-described honorary tree. Keith writes the Substack Big Blue Sky Dragonfly, where he explores the sweet spot between belonging and authenticity — and his story is one Anne-Marie has been wanting to share for a long time.

Keith came out as a lesbian in 2001, while living in conservative Northern Virginia, married to a man, and parenting a young child. There was no social media then, no community waiting on the other side of a Google search — only a Yahoo users group called Lesbian Support, a tiny LGBTQ shelf at the local Barnes and Noble, and a book titled From Wedded Wife to Lesbian Life that he devoured in his minivan. Fifteen years later, after years of sobriety, therapy, and working with gender dysphoria that had been quietly rising for most of his life, Keith came out again — this time as trans.

In this conversation, Anne-Marie and Keith move slowly through the territory many of our community members know well. The double masking of sexuality and gender. The way the body keeps the score when we suppress what we know to be true. The role of community in healing what Anne-Marie has called the relational wound of queerness. The strange terrain of passing, of invisibility, of gaining male privilege as someone who lived nearly five decades culturally read as female. The both/and of every part of this work.

Keith also offers his perspective on imposter syndrome — particularly the queer imposter syndrome that visits so many people who arrive at their identity later in life and wonder if they are queer enough, trans enough, allowed enough to claim what is theirs. His approach, informed by internal family systems, is one of curiosity rather than combat: getting to know the inner critic, learning what it is afraid of, what it has been trying to protect. (Listen for Keith's nod to Marlin from Finding Nemo as the inner critic we can all probably recognize.)

Anne-Marie and Keith also talk practically about how to find safe community when you are exploring something new — including the often-overlooked support of 12-step affinity spaces — and how to find a therapist or coach who actually understands later-in-life identity work, because the rush to be an ally is not the same as the experience to do the work well.

This conversation is for anyone listening who came in for the sexuality piece and has started to wonder if there is something else underneath. It is also for anyone who has been on this path for a while and could use the company of someone who has walked the long version of it.

Connect with Keith

You can find Keith at keitharon.com and on Substack at Big Blue Sky Dragonfly (keitharon.substack.com), or by searching his name on LinkedIn. If you are curious about working with him, his website is the easiest place to start.

Join us in community

If Keith's words about the necessity of community landed somewhere tender today, we want you to know there is a place for you. Authentically Us is Anne-Marie's ongoing community on Mighty Networks for women navigating identity, sexuality, and the questions that arrive in midlife. It is warm, it is unhurried, and it is full of people who have wondered the same things you are wondering. We would love to have you. You can learn more at https://community.annemariezanzal.com.

A decade ago, Anne-Marie and Katrina Anne Willis met inside a small Facebook group that no longer exists — a quiet corner of the internet where women who had Googled "late in life lesbian" found each other. They were both raising kids. Both married to men. Both trying to understand a feeling they didn't yet have language for.

This week, they finally meet face to face.

Katrina is the author of Hurricane Lessons: A Memoir of Betrayal and Becoming, released April 7th by Sibylline Press. In this conversation, she and Anne-Marie trade their parallel stories — the Pilates instructor, the Catholic upbringing, the husbands who said "if you ever leave me, you'll leave me for a woman" long before either of them understood what that meant. They talk about the catalyst relationship that ripped Katrina's world open, the friend group that quietly disappeared, and the children who grieved in their own ways and on their own timelines.

They also talk about what comes after the hurricane. The chosen family. The intentional life. The unexpected softness of a world without raised voices. And the lesson Katrina says took her the longest to learn: that the first betrayal in any coming out story is the betrayal of self, and the becoming begins the moment you stop.

If you've ever wondered whether you're the only one who has felt this way — Katrina's answer, and the heart of this episode, is no. You're not. You never were.

Where to find Katrina:

• Hurricane Lessons is available at bookshop.org, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and independent bookstores everywhere
• Substack: Surrendering to Sappho
• Instagram & Facebook: katrina.anne.willis

Ready to write your own next chapter? Authentically Us is Anne-Marie's private community for women navigating exactly the kind of transition Katrina describes in Hurricane Lessons — the questioning, the becoming, the quiet rebuilding of a life that actually fits. You don't have to figure it out alone, and you don't have to wait until you have language for it. Join us at https://community.annemariezanzal.com

A woman in our community wrote in and asked: "What if my lesbian sex experience doesn't live up to the hype? Does that make me not gay?"

That question deserved more than a one-line answer. So Anne-Marie brought in two of her favorite humans to tell the truth — the kind of truth nobody hands you before you get here.

Her wife Tonda McKay has been out for forty years and brings the long view: what the community looked like before midlife women started arriving in big numbers, and what she's watched shift since. Co-coach Barb Rowlandson came out later in life and survived midlife lesbian dating to tell the tale. Together with Anne-Marie, they go where most podcasts won't.

In this episode, the three of them talk about:

🌈Why the lesbian sex fantasy is so powerful — and why the reality is more complicated than the imagination

🌈Where the U-Haul joke actually comes from (hint: it's economics, microaggressions, and brain chemistry, not just feelings)

🌈Moving fast in a new relationship — when it works, when it doesn't, and how to tell which is which

🌈Why moving toward something is different from moving away from something

🌈Internalized homophobia, shame, and how it shows up in the bedroom — for newly out and long-out women

🌈What it's like to date someone who is brand new when you've been out for decades

🌈How the conversation around later-in-life lesbians has shifted in the last ten years

🌈Why "we send our representative" on the first few dates — and what happens when the real person shows up

🌈Butch, femme, and the freedom of having no rules

🌈The talking. So much talking.

This is a warm, funny, honest conversation between three women who love each other and who are not interested in pretending lesbian relationships are easier, simpler, or more magical than they actually are. They are interested in telling you the truth, so you have company on the road.

If you have ever wondered whether your experience is "normal," whether you are doing this right, or whether the hype was lying to you — this one is for you.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Send it to us. Like the listener who asked the question that opened this episode, your question might be exactly what someone else in our community needs to hear.

New episode of Coming Out & Beyond is live. Listen wherever you get your podcasts — Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or watch the full episode on YouTube:

If you are coming out later in life, dating for the first time as a queer woman, or somewhere in the middle of figuring it all out — you are not alone, and you are not behind. We're glad you're here.

If this episode made you think I want to talk about this with women who get it — that's exactly what Authentically Us is for. It's our private community for women navigating identity, coming out, and what comes next. We talk, we laugh, we process, we hold space. Come find your people. Join us at https://community.annemariezanzal.com .

Join the 3-Day Clarity Experience, May 5–7. A live space for women in the long middle who are ready to stop doing it alone — not to get a fix, but to sit with the questions alongside a community of women in exactly the same place. Standard admission is $47, or $87 for VIP, which includes a private 45-minute call with Anne-Marie. https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

The fantasy is that one day you wake up and everything snaps into place — the marriage, the friendships, the way you dress, the way you pray. What nobody tells us is that for most of us, becoming happens at the speed of a glacier, not a lightning bolt.

In this month's conversation, Anne-Marie Zanzal sits down with returning guest Anna Empey to explore the long middle — the space between knowing and acting, between the question and the certainty. They talk about why coming out is the end of the beginning, not the end of the story; why "I don't know yet" is a complete and honest answer; and why the grand reinvention is really a thousand small permissions stacked on top of each other.

The conversation moves into the nervous system response that comes with this kind of change — the sleep that won't come, the body that won't settle — and the practices that help women stay with themselves while everything is moving. Anne-Marie and Anna also get into shame versus guilt, the cultural script that says coming out is only for the young, and why no one has to blow up her life to live an honest one.

Whether a listener is four months into claiming a new identity or has been sitting with the question for years, this conversation is a reminder that she is not behind. She is already becoming.

Coming Out & Beyond is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, with full video episodes on YouTube: https://youtu.be/g2AGyBj8JXU

For listeners who find today's conversation landing somewhere tender, Authentically Us offers an online community for women navigating identity questions in midlife and beyond — a place to belong while still figuring out what they're becoming. More information is available at https://community.annemariezanzal.com/users/onboarding/plans

#ComingOutLaterInLife #LateBloomerLesbian #LGBTQPodcast #MidlifeAwakening #SacredBelonging

In this week's episode of Coming Out & Beyond, Anne-Marie traces the winding, decade-long road that led her from a single paragraph in an Oprah magazine to finally saying the words out loud — and finding the woman who would become her wife along the way.

She begins in 2006, when an article about women who had left marriages with men to be with women cracked something open in her — a joy she couldn't explain and quietly tucked away. She walks listeners through every moment she tried to surface that truth: a therapist who made her feel like she'd failed a litmus test, a marriage counselor who chalked it up to a difficult relationship with her mother, and the years of silence in between. Then comes the patient — a small, fierce woman from Connecticut who signed her own hospice paperwork and told Anne-Marie she thought she'd been waiting for something her whole life. In that moment, something irreversible shifted.

She shares the four words she typed into Google — late in life lesbian — and what happened next: an online community, a Facebook group with 180 members, and a woman named Tonda McKay from Nashville who put her in the friend zone and then slowly, over the next year, became the love of her life.

Anne-Marie weaves in the music that accompanied all of it — Mary Lambert's "She Keeps Me Warm" and Macklemore's "Same Love" — songs she had cried at for years without fully understanding why. She reflects on what it means to carry a verdict you never agreed to, to mistake recognition for compassion, and to discover that orientation doesn't wait to be confirmed. It was already there, in every song that broke her open, long before she gave herself permission to know it.

This episode closes with an invitation: you don't have to figure this out alone. Anne-Marie did that for ten years. There's another way.

If any part of this episode landed somewhere real in you, the 3-Day Clarity Experience is happening May 5th through 7th. Three days of community, of being seen, of not carrying this alone. Anne-Marie created it for exactly the moment you might be in right now. The link is https://annemariezanzal.com/3-day-clarity-experience/

Anne-Marie tells part of this story — meeting Tonda, the fear, the phone call, all of it — in her memoir Authentic Peace. If this episode moved you and you want to go deeper into her coming-out journey, you can find the book here: https://amzn.to/3F9szYY

You can find Anne-Marie's Substack piece on the therapist who couldn't see her here: https://annemariezanzal1.substack.com/p/the-therapist-who-couldnt-see-me?r=4c7fmc

Looking for community and clarity as you navigate this journey? You don't have to do it alone! Visit https://community.annemariezanzal.com/users/onboarding/plans for ways to connect and learn with women just like you.

Anne-Marie mentions listening to Mary Lambert's "She Keeps Me Warm" — the song that broke her open long before she understood why. Go listen with new ears. The Vevo link is in the show notes. No ally framing. Just her voice. Notice what your body does. https://youtu.be/NhqH-r7Xj0E?si=nBuaJCIxjKUeDmHR

Macklemore's "Same Love" samples Mary Lambert's voice at key moments throughout — it was the anthem of marriage equality in 2012 and part of the soundtrack of Anne-Marie's coming-out years. The YouTube link is in the show notes. https://youtu.be/hlVBg7_08n0?si=cNbfy5Sg6L-T_Uwg

#LateInLifeLesbian #ComingOutLaterInLife #QueerWomen #LGBTQPodcast #AuthenticLife