Sam Michelle and Deb McKenzie met more then a decade ago when they were both given studios in a shared space through their framer. What started as five or six days a week working alongside each other quietly became one of the most important relationships in both their practices.

In this conversation we talk about what it means to have someone who genuinely gets it, not just the excitement of a new show, but the pre-show spiral, the post-show crash, the gallery relationship you're not sure is right, the decision that feels too big to make alone. We talk about vulnerability and whether you actually move through self-doubt faster when you've got someone to be honest with. We talk about the art world feeling opaque and why having one person you can call and say "is this normal?" matters.

We also get into what it means to have someone who can give you an honest perspective without any competing interest, someone who knows what's normal in this industry and what isn't, and who will tell you either way.

Find Sam here on her website here and her instagram here: sammichelle.com.au and on Instagram @sammichelleartist.

Find my previous chats with sam here

Find Debbie McKenzie on her website here and her instagram here debbiemackenzieartist.com and Instagram @debbiemackenzieartist

Find my previous chat with Deb here

You can find the podcast here on Instagram & here on substack

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