Jack El-Hai, acclaimed journalist and author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist and The Lobotomist, takes us inside Dr. Douglas Kelly's psychological examination of Nazi war criminals at the Nuremberg trials. From the lobotomy era to the chilling conclusions about "ordinary" evil, this conversation explores what psychiatry revealed about history's most notorious figures—and what it means for us today.

Key Topics Covered:

🧠 The Lobotomist: How a 1968 lobotomy case in Minnesota led Jack down a 20-year rabbit hole into the history of psychiatric surgery and Walter Freeman's controversial legacy.

⚖️ Douglas Kelly & The Nuremberg Trials The young US Army psychiatrist who had sole access to 22 Nazi defendants—including Hermann Göring—and what he discovered about their psychological profiles.

💡 The Disturbing Conclusions and warnings Kelly's finding that the Nazi leaders were psychologically "normal"—and why that revelation was far more terrifying than finding them insane.

🎬 From Book to Film The 12-year journey from The Nazi and the Psychiatrist to the 2025 film Nuremberg starring Rami Malek—and what changed in adaptation.

Check out Jack El-Hai's work: https://www.el-hai.com/

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