What do kindergarten counting concepts have to do with high school algebra? More than most teachers realize. In this episode, Joanie and Curtis sit down with Erin Wahler-Cleveland, founder of Roots and Wings Math, to explore how deep understanding of early and elementary mathematics lays the groundwork for everything that comes later — and what teachers at every grade level can do to better support that understanding.

Erin opens with a thought-provoking coordinate-plane framework that distinguishes between easy/hard (subjective) and simple/complex (objective). The key insight? As we gain expertise, complex things start to feel simple — and that's exactly what makes teaching so hard. Early numeracy lives in the easy yet complex quadrant, and its depth is routinely underestimated by the adults who teach it.

We discuss important instructional shifts for teachers at every level, and land on an important key takeaway: The central challenge of teaching mathematics is maintaining awareness of a complexity that has become invisible through expertise. The remedy — at both elementary and secondary levels — is giving teachers genuine learner experiences with the content they teach, paired with disciplined questioning practices that reveal student thinking rather than assume it.

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Roots and Wings Math – https://www.rootsandwingsmath.com/
• The Dunning-Kruger Effect - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
• Room to Grow Podcast – www.roomtogrowmath.com